[JohnR]

Sooo... this latest collection of gadgets like the Olive and Transporter... these are just computers, right?

I don't understand what the fuss is about  someone please enlighten...

[ZLS]

Hello,

    What is happening is that the technology is evolving (or regressing depending on your point of view.)  These new devices are Hard Drive based systems in which the data from the compact disc is stored on a computer's Hard Drive and can be played back at the time of your choosing.  You no longer need the physical disc other than for the first time you "rip" it into the computers memory. 
    The debate between the various devices is that some require you to have a separate PC to store and access the music and others are stand alone devices which self contained and operate independently.  Of course there is great debate and how each sounds and how the measurements of distortion reflect upon said sound. 
    We are seeing the beginning of the technology that will free the data from a physical container.  The concept of owing an actual physical compact disc will soon seem as quaint as the buggy whip holders built on the first cars. 
    I hope this has been helpful

                                         ZLS

[Doublej]

Correct. They are computers that in theory have been optimized for the specific task of playing music.

You can decide for yourself whether or not the user experience (interface, sound quality, physical size, etc.) is better or worse than that of your favorite computer.

[JohnR]

In what ways have they been optimized for playing music?

I mean, compared to using an existing computer and a squeezebox, what do you get?

[brj]

I think he meant that the computer was optimized for audio compared to a standard computer, rather than compared to a SB or similar.  Examples of this optimization include using a separate high quality linear power supply for the audio components, more attention paid to keeping the computer quiet, etc..

The Olive is a true computer coupled with a DAC and small integrated display.  The Transporter is not a computer in the sense that it has no general purpose processor, operating system, hard drive, etc..  The Transporter is essentially a specialized router with a DAC and integrated display that requires a music server to be running on an actual computer at the other end of the network.

When you reduce it to the most basic of statements, computer based audio gives you two things:

1) Incredible convenience, in that your entire music collection is at your finger tips at once.  Argueably the highest form of computer system convenience is the LCD screen based remote that displays track information and album art in your hands and controls a computer or NAS (Network Attached Storage) device in another room.

2) The possibility of significantly reduced jitter over a transport based playback system.  In practice, this is (unfortunately) not realized as often as you might think.  Generally, it is done over USB, but only one of the 3 USB protocols is effective in this role, and most consumer grade USB audio products are still sending the signal through a S/PDIF conversion for the sake of reducing cost.

Hope that helps!

Edit: I should qualify my jitter statement... if the S/PDIF is done well on a computer based audio system, you can still obtain lower jitter levels than a traditional playback system because you've eliminated the jitter inherant to the process of reading a spinning optical disk.  Reading from a hard drive is jitter free due to the speed and buffering of the HD.

[ZLS]

Hello Again,

    Let me talk in specifics.  The Olive Musica which I own (Modified) is a computer that has a CD player built in.  It is engineered for the sole purpose of playing back music.  I need no other computer to feed it data.  I insert the CD, it can play it like any other CD player or it can copy the data for me to play back when and how I choose.  The Musica can be connected to a wireless system but it is not necessary.  The Squeeze Box must be fed from an computer.  It is where is gets its data.  There is no data stored in a Squeezebox.  
    Think of the Olive Musica as a single purpose computer. I do not have to have my PC running in order to listen to music on the Olive Musica.  
    The format the music is stored in, the DAC each device uses, the power supply each device employs; all of these variables affect the sound.  
    I would suggest that any purchase decision would be first dependent of which sound you prefer, and secondally on which format you find most convent

                                         ZLS

[PhilNYC]

In what ways have they been optimized for playing music?

I mean, compared to using an existing computer and a squeezebox, what do you get?

Computers have a lot of internal electrical noise/EM/RF that will affect the audio signal.  It has components unrelated to audio that are all hooked up to the same power supply (eg. video card, multple processors, extension cards, etc) which are unnecessary and potentially detrimental to processing an audio signal. 

The Squeezebox/Transporter and Olive products are designed specifically for music, much in the same way a CD player is designed specifically for music..

You could also look at a CD player as "a computer with an optical drive dedicated for music"...

[John Casler]

Sooo... this latest collection of gadgets like the Olive and Transporter... these are just computers, right?

I don't understand what the fuss is about  someone please enlighten...

Excellent question, and the above are all excellent answers.

I think we all must know by now that almost every development has "up and down" sides to it.

While many are supporting HD technology for sound reproduction, not all think it is the "cat's pajamas".

As many know, I jumped in with the OLIVE units, because they seem to offer a nice solution/integration to what seems to be the coming technology.

In my conversations with many about this technology, I did come across a seemingly savvy "computer expert" who laughed that anyone would even consider taking sound off a HD

He seemed to think it was a horrible idea 

Now, as many have seen, there is controversy over the method/technology of even one of the OLIVE units.

While I appreciate the viewpoints of others and like to explore the technologies, the end result is "WHAT DOES IT BRING TO THE TABLE SOUND WISE"???

My personal answer is that the unit I have is far and away, a better sounding component, than what I have previously heard in several ways. (Actually most everyway soundwise)

But, beyond that, the operational capabilities, and additional functions, related to hardwired and wireless operation, multisystem/multiroom operation, and the ability to create playlists, access software instantly, and burn your own CD's at any time, is very nice.

It seems that there will be large scale focus on integrating functions and systems like this in the future.

So as most have said above, look at where you want to go (your needs) and move forward (or stay put) as you feel fits your sensibilities, budget and curiosity.

[Double Ugly]

In my conversations with many about this technology, I did come across a seemingly savvy "computer expert" who laughed that anyone would even consider taking sound off a HD

He seemed to think it was a horrible idea 

Interesting.  I know a few recording, mixing and mastering engineers who would enthusiastically disagree with his opinion, and I bet you do, too.  'Course, you and I know better, as do a lot of folks who've joined the HD revolution over the past year or so.

But, beyond that, the operational capabilities, and additional functions, related to hardwired and wireless operation, multisystem/multiroom operation, and the ability to create playlists, access software instantly, and burn your own CD's at any time, is very nice.

Absolutely...it's called convenience. 

But it isn't just that it's a lazy (or lazy-er) way of listening to music.  To my ears, the sound one can achieve is pretty amazing, especially at the price point.  I've heard a lot of hyper-expensive digital set-ups, but I don't prefer any of them to the Bolder SB2 and Ultimate PS I recently sold.  Was my digital front-end truly their equal?  I don't know...but I didn't walk away wondering how good my system would sound if I could afford them.  To the contrary, I was quite satisfied.

In the end, I think it's

• the combination of convenience and
• the perceived ability to achieve a sound on par with the best 'conventional' equipment available at a fraction of the cost

...mostly the latter.

To me, properly executed, it's worth making a fuss about.  To others, maybe not so much.

[shokunin]

With all of these devices it comes down to ease of use, UI, and integration into your network.  The squeebox/trasnporter is great to  get a whole house full of audio that all stream from a central storage location.  The olive units are great if someone wants a one-box solution without needing a PC turned on somewhere in the house.  The PC's are useful if there is one already located where you want to play music.  They all serve the same function but the ease of using each of them is a different story.

I've tried PC based audio, and it's difficult from a display and remote control persepctive. Sure it's easy if you have a wireless keyboard, mouse, remote, but that's too many items to use to just listen to some music on your hard drive.  The there's the whole PC side of ASIO, K-Mixer, clicks and pops etc.    A squeezebox with it's built in display and  remote requires no bootup, shutdown, hard drive heat and noise, etc.  The olive is similarly easy to use with it's display and hard drive, built-in CD Rom drive and remote.  I personally prefer the "dumb-terminal" approach of the squeezebox, although it's not completely "dumb". 

[JohnR]

Hi, thanks for the replies I've had a look through the Olive manual now... Phil, when was the last time you saw a CD player manual with a section on how to reinstall the operating system?

I can see the appeal of the one box solution but then I wonder about what happens when you run out of storage and so on. It seems like you're going to need another computer anyway. And managing the Olive type of unit (playlists, backups, and so on) seems like more work than with a normal computer...

Jim, what did you replace the SB2 with? One of these units?

[Double Ugly]

I can see the appeal of the one box solution but then I wonder about what happens when you run out of storage and so on. It seems like you're going to need another computer anyway. And managing the Olive type of unit (playlists, backups, and so on) seems like more work than with a normal computer...

I'm using a striped array on my 'regular' computer for now, but I'll probably end up with one the NAS solutions.  If finances won't allow, I'll build my own.

One box solutions is the answer for some, but the Squeezebox has opened my eyes to the convenience and simplicity of ready access w/ remote storage.  No internal HDDs and the associated heat and noise to content with, and the remote storage solution can be as big or small as you want.  Expanding is simple and virtually limitless, something that isn't necessarily the case when the storage solution must remain near the rest of your system.

Jim, what did you replace the SB2 with? One of these units?

I'm currently using a Bolder "Basic" PS and unmodified SB2 I purchased a while back.  I'm not sure what I'll end up with, but I'm leaning towards Sean Adam's new Transporter, which is essentially a Squeezebox on steroids.  Sean seems intent on building a product using pieces, parts and components that result in quantifiable, real-world differences, and he listens to what his customers want.  So far, there isn't really much to dislike.

But then it hasn't yet been exposed to the scrutiny the Olive has endured either.

Hope this helps.

-Jim

[John Casler]

Hi, thanks for the replies I've had a look through the Olive manual now... Phil, when was the last time you saw a CD player manual with a section on how to reinstall the operating system?

I can see the appeal of the one box solution but then I wonder about what happens when you run out of storage and so on. It seems like you're going to need another computer anyway. And managing the Olive type of unit (playlists, backups, and so on) seems like more work than with a normal computer...

The OLIVE allows you to both add "outboard HDs" (via USB) for additional storage and or use your computer (via hardwired or wireless connection)

The additional HD option does not require a separate computer, only a HD and USB cable.

I think you might be correct that a full computer might be more familiar and it also has a larger screen, but according to the manual (I haven't doen this myself) once the Drive is set up, it is not too difficult to access and back up.

My biggest wish (for the OLIVE) would be to have a larger color screen similar to the SONOS from which to perfrom these functions, as well as operate the system.

I have been told that they are working on a PDA type unit that may have this function.

[Bill Baker]

This is an interesting thread as I have also been looking into the Musica.  From what I gather, it is essentially a "source" component in that it has both CD playback and storage capabilities via an HD. Like others have mentioned, a scaled down computer. This brings another question to the table. Being a hard drive device, is it as easily prone to "crashing"?

 From what I have come across in reading, running out of storage could take some time and with the ability to simply add additional external hard drives, the possibilities are endless.

 I have no problem with advancing technology and as long as I can maintain a conventional system with the exception of the front end........ I'm willing to look into it further.

[John Casler]

This is an interesting thread as I have also been looking into the Musica.  From what I gather, it is essentially a "source" component in that it has both CD playback and storage capabilities via an HD. Like others have mentioned, a scaled down computer. This brings another question to the table. Being a hard drive device, is it as easily prone to "crashing"?

 From what I have come across in reading, running out of storage could take some time and with the ability to simply add additional external hard drives, the possibilities are endless.

 I have no problem with advancing technology and as long as I can maintain a conventional system with the exception of the front end........ I'm willing to look into it further.

Hi Bill,

I think all of the systems suggest using a separate HD as a "backup" in case of HD failure.

[PhilNYC]

I think all of the systems suggest using a separate HD as a "backup" in case of HD failure.

So what happens if the internal hard drive does fail?  Is a replacement covered under the warranty?  Or is it replaceable with any IDE or SATA drive?  Or do you suddenly get stuck with a dead internal drive?

[John Casler]

I think all of the systems suggest using a separate HD as a "backup" in case of HD failure.

So what happens if the internal hard drive does fail?  Is a replacement covered under the warranty?  Or is it replaceable with any IDE or SATA drive?  Or do you suddenly get stuck with a dead internal drive?

I think these are standard "off the shelf" HD's, so I'm sure they could be replaced, just like if the CD Drive failed.

I would doubt they are "user" replacable however, like in a DELL

[JohnR]

After all this, I'm thinking I might actually go with a USB DAC like the Hagtech Chime. Ok, well, not "like" but one of those. It seems like a good solution for me.

[MauiMods]

Phil,
Olive would need to replace the Harddrive for the User if it failed, Regardless if it's in or out of the Warranty.  ( to code the drive to the unit via serial number).

It would be nice to get a musica, buy a 750 gb HD, for $400  and install it.
But it cant be done by the end user, only Olive.   I am sure someone would find a hack for this.
AP

I think all of the systems suggest using a separate HD as a "backup" in case of HD failure.

So what happens if the internal hard drive does fail?  Is a replacement covered under the warranty?  Or is it replaceable with any IDE or SATA drive?  Or do you suddenly get stuck with a dead internal drive?