[Midnite Mick]

I am wondering what are the advantages and disadvantage of 2 way designs vs. 3 way designs.  Pros and Cons of each, trade-offs, etc.  Which do you prefer and why?

Mike

[Levi]

Typically they are:
2-way=2 speakers minimum
3-way=3 speakers minimum
or my Sonus Faber Grand Piano 2-1/2-way=3 speakers.
The performance is all relative to the speaker design and obviously the crossover.  Some claimed that less is more.

When buying, I normally don't count speakers.  I listen to them and pick the one that best sound with my system.

[Bob Reynolds]

I believe the fundamental problem is that the audio band is wider that a single driver can operate across in a linear fashion. With that assumption, theoretically I think dividing up the audio band into a greater number of bands is better than fewer bands. Each driver operates over a narrower band of frequencies and should produce less distortion. Of course, the crossover network becomes more complex - a low pass filter + a series of band pass filters + a high pass filter. My understanding is that if the crossover is done on line level signals with active circuitry it can be better accomplished than the traditional passive circuitry on speaker level signals.

Now, there is an associated question of whether a full range speaker should even be considered for use in the typical home. Assuming we are still trying to reproduce the full audio band, then separating the bass drivers from the midrange and treble drivers has some acoustical advantages. The midrange and treble drivers need to be out into the room away from reflecting surfaces like walls. The bass drivers need to be near reflecting surfaces like walls. This is an obvious conflict and a single box full range speaker will always be a compromise.

The sat/sub configuration can provide a solution to the conflict yielding excellent results when implemented properly. The NHT Xd system is really the future of speaker system design -- sat/sub configuration, active line level crossover and DSP speaker and room correction. We can only hope that enough interest is shown so that other manufacturers will follow suit.

Hope this helps,

Bob

[kfr01]

I am wondering what are the advantages and disadvantage of 2 way designs vs. 3 way designs.  Pros and Cons of each, trade-offs, etc.  Which do you prefer and why?

Mike

3-way designs get my vote, unless you have a small room.  I'm a fan of bandwidth and allowing drivers to play in frequency ranges they are comfortable with.  I feel it leads to cleaner and fuller sound at more volume levels.  3-way designs normally take up more space, are more complex, and are more expensive.

I personally think in medium to large sized rooms it is difficult to argue for 2-way designs for critical listening.  (unless you don't like bass, music with bass, never turn up the volume, etc.)

[Midnite Mick]

The reason I ask this is because I am currently building the Exodus 2641 kit and enjoying the process so much that I can't see myself not trying other designs.  Some other projects that have peaked my interest are the Seas Thor and the Scan Speak Ultimate Revelation.  When I look at other speaker designs there are some very highly regarded (and expensive) 2 ways.  For example SP Technology speakers. 

I myself have always had a preference for the multi drivered 3 way speakers but have not really heard a lot of high end 2 way speakers.  The only one that I have heard was the Usher 6371 (may be 2.5 way however).  There were things about it that I really liked but I did feel that it lacked bass, even though it stated that it played down to 30 Hz  (didn't seem like it).  Granted it wasn't in a very Bass inducive room (basement walls were carpeted floor to ceiling and one wall was hollow).   The designer of the Usher that I heard was Dr. Joe D'Appolito in which he does a lot of 2 way designs.  I thought it may be for a reason.

In my emails with Bill Baker of Response Audio when discussing the SP tech (2 way) and Usher 6391 (3 way) it seemed that he preferred the SP Tech speaker.  He believed keeping it simple and having less crossover frequency overlap was better.

The primary reason I selected the Exodus kit that I did was because it was a multi-drivered 3 way and I really liked the Usher tweeter.  I am just curious as to why a lot of 2 way monitors are so popular.  Thought there must be something about them that people prefer because it can't be a cost issue as they are still quite expensive.  I thought there must be some other thing that a 2 way provides that a 3 way does not and I must be missing something.

Mike

[DSK]

I personally think in medium to large sized rooms it is difficult to argue for 2-way designs for critical listening.  (unless you don't like bass, music with bass, never turn up the volume, etc.)

...or integrate it properly with a fast, tight, musical subwoofer (possibly with HP filter on mains).

[pearsall001]

I am wondering what are the advantages and disadvantage of 2 way designs vs. 3 way designs.  Pros and Cons of each, trade-offs, etc.  Which do you prefer and why?

Mike

For my listening tastes - 2 way - less is better, more controled & pleasing to my ears.

Phil

[kfr01]

The reason I ask this is because I am currently building the Exodus 2641 kit and enjoying the process so much that I can't see myself not trying other designs.

Mick:

My primary speakers are the 2641s.  I think you'll be very pleased.  My prediction is that once you hear the completeness and depth that the 2641 provides, you'll have a hard time considering 2-way designs.

Good luck --- be sure to post pics of your completed speakers.  In-process shots are fun too!

[Midnite Mick]

The reason I ask this is because I am currently building the Exodus 2641 kit and enjoying the process so much that I can't see myself not trying other designs.

Mick:

My primary speakers are the 2641s.  I think you'll be very pleased.  My prediction is that once you hear the completeness and depth that the 2641 provides, you'll have a hard time considering 2-way designs.

Good luck --- be sure to post pics of your completed speakers.  In-process shots are fun too!

Thanks Kfr.  I am aware that you built these as well.  Your positive statements contributed to my decision making process.  As we know it is tough to make decisions when we can't use our ears first.  There are so many options out there. 

Yours look great by the way.  It must seem like they disappear when watching a movie.

Mike

[Josuah]

The midrange and treble drivers need to be out into the room away from reflecting surfaces like walls. The bass drivers need to be near reflecting surfaces like walls.

That's only true if you are using room gain to boost your bass frequencies instead of watts and/or a better quality driver and/or larger driver. Even then, let's say you want the speakers to be at least 3' away from a wall (which is likely to mean a few feet farther if you measure to the first reflection points). You'll still get room gain on everything at 45Hz and below, IIRC.

[Bob Reynolds]

The midrange and treble drivers need to be out into the room away from reflecting surfaces like walls. The bass drivers need to be near reflecting surfaces like walls.

That's only true if you are using room gain to boost your bass frequencies instead of watts and/or a better quality driver and/or larger driver. Even then, let's say you want the speakers to be at least 3' away from a wall (which is likely to mean a few feet farther if you measure to the first reflection points). You'll still get room gain on everything at 45Hz and below, IIRC.

No that's not true. It matters not how many watts nor the size of the driver; what matters is the dimensions of the room. Those dimensions will determine which bass frequencies are going to cause problems -- room modes. Having the bass driver separate, allows you to locate the driver such that you get good bass response at the listening position. Placing the bass driver near a boundary does provide additonal gain, but that's not the main reason for doing it. Corner placement will excite all room modes and that typically works well enough. I believe that Roy Allison's work addressed these issues.

[Morbius]

I am wondering what are the advantages and disadvantage of 2 way designs vs. 3 way designs.  Pros and Cons of each, trade-offs, etc.  Which do you prefer and why?

Mike,

I would take Levi's advice, and not worry about whether a speaker is 2-way or 3-way.

Just concentrate on how it sounds.

"Ideally", one would want a 1-way speaker; all sounds produced by a single driver, no crossover.....

However, that's not practically realizable; it's difficult to cover the entire audio spectrum with a single driver.
Hence, 2-way and 3-way designs. 

The 2-way has only one crossover; but requires its drivers to cover more of the audio spectrum.  The 3-way
requires the drivers to cover less of the spectrum, so they can do so more optimally. But this comes at the
cost of an additional crossover.

There are competing issues with 2-way vis-a-vis 3-way; so one can't say 2-way is better or the 3-way is better.
What counts is how well designed the 2-way or 3-way is, and how well that design is executed.

So forget about how many drivers are in the speakers under your consideration; and just listen to them.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist

[JLM]

Some thoughts...

There is no perfect speaker design, each are compromised.

But each of us have our own priorities that will dictate which design could sound the best.

For decades marketers have been trying to convince us of the need for 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 120 dB, but most listeners are amazed the first time they sit down with a spl meter and test tones to find out how little sound (let alone music) exists at either frequency extreme and how damn loud 100 dB really is.  For decades marketers have been trying to convince us of the need for 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 120 dB, but most listeners are amazed the first time they sit down with a spl meter and test tones to find out how little sound (let alone music) exists at either frequency extreme and how damn loud 100 dB really is.  Alas its now a "macho thing" to brag over specifications like these.  Alas its now a "macho thing" to brag over specifications like these, and so hard for most to back down from.  But I highly recommend that anyone investing $1000 in audio/HT equipment spend 20 minutes with the meter/test tones. 

If your priorities go towards home theather dinosaur stomps or ear bleeding/lease breaking spls you'll need more drivers and crossovers.  But if your room is 2,000 cubic feet (such as 12 ft x 20 ft x 8 ft) or so, your focus is on music only, and you're only interested in achieving 105 dB (symphonic concert peaks) then two way designs can work very well.  The satellite/sub concept is decades old and quite valid for larger rooms and more remote (home versus studio monitoring) style of listening.

With more crossovers there will be more issues trying to match the voicing of different drivers (types, brands, dispersion patterns); phase alignment between each driver; and synergizing between the amp(s) and each driver.  And inevitably when cost are considered the quality of components can be compromised as their number increases.

OTOH all these issues go away with single driver designs.  However nearly all of those lack deep bass, many "beam" at high frequencies, and most have limited output.  But the coherency, imaging, and direct (active) amp to driver interface can yield impressive results when used for music only applications.

[MarkM]

The 2-way has only one crossover; but requires its drivers to cover more of the audio spectrum.  The 3-way
requires the drivers to cover less of the spectrum, so they can do so more optimally. But this comes at the
cost of an additional crossover.

There are competing issues with 2-way vis-a-vis 3-way; so one can't say 2-way is better or the 3-way is better.
What counts is how well designed the 2-way or 3-way is, and how well that design is executed.

So forget about how many drivers are in the speakers under your consideration; and just listen to them.

Good advice, comes down to the designers abilities.  Even with the extra xo components in a 3 way, a talented designer will make that point moot.  A well executed 3 way should better a 2 way design.

[PhilNYC]

For decades marketers have been trying to convince us of the need for 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 120 dB, but most listeners are amazed the first time they sit down with a spl meter and test tones to find out how little sound (let alone music) exists at either frequency extreme and how damn loud 100 dB really is.  For decades marketers have been trying to convince us of the need for 20 - 20,000 Hz response at 120 dB, but most listeners are amazed the first time they sit down with a spl meter and test tones to find out how little sound (let alone music) exists at either frequency extreme and how damn loud 100 dB really is. 

One of the most enjoyable speaker systems I've ever heard were the Vince Christian E9 w/c12p sub.  Their specs say they start rolling off at about 18khz....

[Midnite Mick]

I appreciate the adage of just listen and not worry about how many crossovers and where, etc.  I am speaking however from a DIY standpoint and often plan on building something just out of the curiousity of how it sounds.  Of course, you look at reviews and who the designer is as well.  One of the reasons from a spec. point of view of a 3 way is because often a 2 way doesn't go as low.  Anyway, just wanted to get others opinions on the subject.

Thanks,
Mike

[Frihed91]

There are a whole lot of people in this world who would not only be able to spend much less on speakers, amplifiers, and room treatments, but also hear more beautiful music if they turned the volume way down, pulled their speakers out away from the walls and corners and listened in the near field.  By my definition a good speaker is one that will image just as well when you are 1-2 m from it as when you are 3-5 m from it.

Very few people are willing to believe this and yet most who have done it, find it to be surprisingly true.  Let us also not forget that even the vaunted Quad Esl 57s were mainly used in little rooms, by North American standards, when they first came out in the UK.

[SET Man]

Hey!

    2 ways? 3 ways? You know there are 4 and 5 ways speaker too!

     But for me I've been enjoying my DIY 1 way speaker system for a while now. Well, what I mean is the Single Driver speaker. Okay, I added a super tweeter.... so I guess I have to call them 1.5 way right?

      Okay seriouly.... my point of view about this is that the more drivers the more complex the xover get and now we get into phase and time shift. Also with all the drivers playing it is hard for the sound to blend together seamlessly.... also most speaker are made up with drivers made from differernt materials and each have thier own sonic signature.

      Of cause there are some disadvantage of my single driver speaker... first would be they don't play very loud... although louder than I could take.. and they don't go very low compared to multi-ways speaker. But since I don't listen to music very loud I get to enjoy the vertures of single driver Want to get a taste of what Single Dirver sound like right now? Just put on a pair of a good headphone like Grado or Sennhieser and etc.

       Anyway, this kind of discussion could go on forever As with many thing in life audio is a compromise. So, just go out and listen to whatever speaker designs you could find and see that what design you feel get you closer to the music itself.

Take care,
Buddy


       
     

     

[Josuah]

No that's not true. It matters not how many watts nor the size of the driver; what matters is the dimensions of the room. Those dimensions will determine which bass frequencies are going to cause problems -- room modes. Having the bass driver separate, allows you to locate the driver such that you get good bass response at the listening position. Placing the bass driver near a boundary does provide additonal gain, but that's not the main reason for doing it. Corner placement will excite all room modes and that typically works well enough. I believe that Roy Allison's work addressed these issues.

Ah, I had completely forgotten about that. Good point and thanks for correcting me. I guess it doesn't cross my mind often because my room situation is such that modes don't really cause a problem for me.

[Wayner]

I don't think there is a best for a 2-way or 3-way or 10-way, it's all in how the designer blended the drivers together and how careful the cross-over network was fashioned. I do tend to think that 2-ways can sound very good, but that requires a tweeter to go very, very low, which often leads to less power handling. I have a pair of MartinLogan reQuests that are a 2-way and they kick butt. I have a pair of Paradigm 40v.3 studios that are 3-ways. They also kick butt.

I do like to do the stand up, sit down test when I audition speakers. If you hear any weird phase shifting when you are doing this technique, move on to the next model.

I truly think the goal is the have a speaker with multiple drivers actually sound like one driver.

W