Anyone..Anyone?

pacifico · « **on:** 15 Jul 2006, 03:51 pm »

Greetings,

I am looking for a two-way monitor in the $1500-2000 range with a minimum of 90 db efficiency. Reasonable perofrmance at 42hz would be great but not a deal breaker. I plan to listen to rock mostly with these. I am also interested in transitioning into med. powered tube amps. Imaging secondary to soundstage. Any suggestions?

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Jul 2006, 03:55 pm »

> I am looking for a two-way monitor in the $1500-2000 range ... Reasonable perofrmance at 42hz would be great <

The best value I can think of for that price range is Mackie HR824 professional monitors. They're flat to below 40 Hz, very tight with low distortion, and they also have two built-in (bi-amped) power amps.

--Ethan

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Jul 2006, 04:12 pm »

You are bumping up against the laws of physics. The sensitivity & bandwidth goals are intertwined. You can probably get 90db/1W/1M with a 42Hz f3 in-room but you are narrowing your choices in loudspeakers. There are not a lot of drivers I'd use in a 2-way that are 93-94db/1W/1M which is what you need to design with a little baffle step compensation. The drivers that are that sensitive are either large in diameter with dispersion and/or break-up problems or they have a set of T/S parameters such that they don't make a great midbass.

I'd give up a little on your sensitivity goal and just make sure the design is easy to drive. Most 50W P-P tube amp designs will easily drive 88-89db-1W-1M designs and you gain a lot in terms of other desirable characteristics in the loudspeaker.

Scott F. · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Jul 2006, 04:41 pm »

My vote goes for Altec A-19's. Those or some other vintage Hi-E speakers like any of the big Altecs, JBLs or Klipsch's. All of them can be had off eBay for well under $2k, most for under $1k.

You can drive them with as little as 3/4 of a watt into the 95db+ range. Great on any nearly type music. Top that off with the fact that they'll not only do your 45hz, I'd bet they'll to 30hz solid in room.

Toss in the fact that your neighbors party with you everytime you turn them on (ask Deadfish about his A-19's), and you've got yourself one heck of a pair of speakers. Myself (and Willie) both have Altec A-7's. Not quite the 19's but pretty close.

Several of the other guys in town have Klipsch horns, LaScalla's, Belle's and various other Hi-E speakers (like Bozak Concert Grandes). Each of them are slightly different sounding. All of them kick ass in my books (mainly because you can use SET with them) and none of them will you loose money on (other than maybe shipping) if you decide to buy them.

If you decide to go for the vintage horns, don't cheap out. Buy good ones that have been taken care of. Hopefully whomever owned them freshened the caps and has done some of the tweaks that everybody on the Hi-E boards have talked about.

...just my two cents..

pacifico · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Jul 2006, 04:49 pm »

Thank you kevin and scott...You both confirmed my (more qualitative and less well-rounded) research into the subject. I think I would be more willing to give up bandwith over sensitivity though. Could always use a sub at some point. I am not so much of a bassophile.

WEEZ · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Jul 2006, 06:02 pm »

You might have a look at the Coincident Triumph Signature Extreem. 94db/8ohm. Tube friendly. Add a sub later if you want one.

www.coincidentspeaker.com

Or, maybe the Silverline Reference SR15. 90db/8ohm. Tube friendly, also.

www.silverlineaudio.com

fwiw...

WEEZ

pacifico · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 Jul 2006, 09:26 pm »

Thanks, the silverlines look interesting. I am also considering the Zu monitors.

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 12:58 am »

Those dog gone laws of physics...

The bottom octave (for most music, 30 - 60 Hz) gets pretty tough. Efficiency, moving air, driver size, driver X-max, driver beaming, cabinet size, etc. all interwine and fustrate. Getting down to 60 Hz is a snap. In fact nearly all the Omega single driver speakers (see circle below) can reach 55 Hz and at least 93 dB/w/m.

Do they have to be monitors? When I think about adding stands and that they end up taking up the same floor space I end up going back to floorstanders. (Besides standmounts are top heavy and more subject to getting knocked over.) Floorstanders usually provide deeper bass and/or more efficiency for a given woofer.

I'm not sure how tubes and rock synergize. Seems like the tubes would take some of the edge off, provide midrange warmth, and typically lack deep bass power/control anyway.

How loud did you want it to get? A "medium" sized tube amp may only be 20 wpc, which adds 13 dB of gain. Your goal of 90 dB/w/m speakers would only get you (in a typical living or bed room) to about 103 dB (short of typical rock concert levels of 110 dB). In fact you'd need 100 wpc with 90 dB/w/m speakers to reach 110 dB.

pacifico · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 01:26 pm »

well...not so worried about the bottom octave...i will probrably get a sub for this....not so familiar with this branch of physics but from my search I was getting the feeling that all of the above was true. that's why this post was titled the way it was. the klipschorns were suggested earlier and I've thought about them in the past. the coincidents are interesting, although i've heard that they can be hit or miss, productionwise.

One of my first "audiophile experiences" was with meadowlarks. i think it was their entry level tower at around 91 db. had they not gone out of business, i would probrably own a pair and not be on the audio merry-go-round. they were impressive. I guess what iam trying to say is that i have not entirely ruled out floorstanders. I would welcome any suggestions that would come close to mimicking their magic.

Yes indeed, the downside to monitors is definitely the stands. Monitors are top-heavy and in addition the stands are an added cost.

BTW, haven't ruled out omega...but the waf is pretty low and they would be within her sight on a daily basis.

May actually get off the merry go round and settle for a gallo adiva system. that's my backup plan. it has very high waf...but i am not ready to give in yet.

thanks to all-AP

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 06:16 pm »

I think your decision to give up the lower octaves is a wise decision. Adding a proper sub later will get you a much better speaker system. Just make sure you pick monitors that are designed to be mated with a sub, i.e., make your choice on the entire speaker system (monitors + sub). I would research the trade-offs of acoustic suspension vs bass-reflex designs since you are willing to accept less bass from the monitor.

You might find these remarks of interest:
http://www.mkprofessional.com/bass_mgmt.htm

Good luck,
Bob

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 06:28 pm »

I, too, owned Meadowlark speakers. The Kestrel (original) was my first floorstander. To my ears, I had to double the price to find another floorstander to top it (under $5K) -- Spendor S8e.

However, I am now using M&K reference monitors + sub + bass management controller. The stands of a monitor are not a disadvantage if they are adjustable. You can set the tweeter height exactly where you want it. Stands are not really an additional cost either when compared to the cost of a floorstander's box. I can highly recommend the adjustable studio stands from Sound Anchor. They are built to last a lifetime and are completely inert. You can build the system incrementally as funds allow.

A sat/sub speaker system has a very real advantage over full range floorstanders -- they allow the optimal positioning of bass drivers and midrange + treble drivers independently. A full range floorstander will always force you into making a compromise.

pacifico · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 06:52 pm »

thanks, i was also interested in the spendor line (s5e?).
Just recently I came across a pair of speakers at response audio that would seem to fit the bill.
Adjustable stands ehh?? awesome.
The stands I have now are bargain basement.
I am slowly improving my system over time and the speakers are next in line to go. As far as subs go, iwas thinking about an aci sub or vmps larger.
the aci's are very nice in the fact that they have an adjusatable crossover.
I am afraid that at this moment my tastes and knowledge in subwoofer techology is rather limited. haven't gotten there yet.
still trying to convince my wife about the cost of $1600 monitors!!!

JLM · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 08:55 pm »

Sub later can be very smart. The ideal location for bass is opposite of mid/highs. The sub can be sized to the size of room (and can be pointless in an apartment setting). Pulling load off the mid/tweeter and it's amp helps it play louder/better.

When you think about it most speakers have about the same footprint (1 sq. ft.) and take up roughly the floor area for best imaging/bass performance (3 - 5 feet from side and back walls). Can wife accept the speakers staying out away from walls (at least most of the time)? If not, you should probably think of lighter weight speakers. Is the room you'll be listening in large? Is it pretty packed full of furnishings? Larger rooms need more output to "fill the room". There are a few very small floorstanders, but they can get "lost" behind furniture and have limited bass/output.

Omega speakers with low WAF?? (Must be a shape factor issue) as Louis does incredible work and has a big veneer/laminate selection. He could probably also to a custom finish if you ask nice (and maybe throw him a couple of extra bucks).

If you liked Meadowlarks, you might like PMC or Bob Brines speakers as they provide transmission line designs. (I love transmission line bass.) See Bryston/PMC circle below. Google Bob Brines. He does single driver designs, most of which are quite efficient and synergize nicely to tubes, and as each pair is built to order you can pick the veneer. All his designs use single drivers.

WEEZ · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 09:56 pm »

Just another website to check out for smaller speakers:

www.nsmaudio.com

Look at the 10S and the 15. Read the reviews. Look at the specs. I believe you can get a 30 money back on these...but I'm not sure.

I've hear the 15 and it's pretty nice.

WEEZ

pacifico · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Jul 2006, 10:06 pm »

Yes, I am ashamed to admit it....but my wife hates all speakers except for the gallo a divas.
There is some nudging room for me but I know where the line is drawn.

Right now, my speakers are about 8 feet apart and avout three feet from the nearest wall.
The room is medium sized with an angled ceiling.
lots of carpet and a medium level of furnishing. My NAD C372 takes about 40 watts of juice to power my 87db paradigms to reasonably loud levels.
They have good bass but not a great soundstage (like i've heard from the spendors and meadowlarks(. what do you want for $550 though?

For the moment the entry level pmc's seem to be out of my price range. If I wait until the fall, I may have over 2K for speakers.

My wife doesn't understand this habit and is very frugal. We both drive honda civics. I told her we all die someday and we should enjoy some of our money before we die.

Frihed91 · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Jul 2006, 07:00 am »

Have you looked at JM_Reynaud Monitors? Efficient and musical, with big cabinets so they go as low as any. These are not "accurate" speakers, but many love the sound.

Digi-G · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Jul 2006, 02:53 pm »

For WAF and decent sound you should also consider the Nautilus 805's from B&W. They look as good as they sound, although the sensitivity and low end you're after are borderline. Still worthy of a listen though.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/Model%20805S

Good Luck.

woodsyi · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Jul 2006, 03:18 pm »

Quote from: pacifico on 16 Jul 2006, 06:52 pm

thanks, i was also interested in the spendor line (s5e?).
Just recently I came across a pair of speakers at response audio that would seem to fit the bill.

I heard Merle's Spendors (s5e?)couple of weeks ago -- very nice if you don't need the first octave bass. He is in Catonsville. You may want to PM him for a listen.

Bill's Bella SP1's are very good also. As for WAF, I got my wife's OK for the bedroom which is a big deal......

lcrim · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Jul 2006, 04:00 pm »

A few months back I was looking for speakers to use with Eastern Electric Minimax separates, 8 watts per side. I passed on a pair of Galante Audio Rhapsodies which are a coaxial speaker w/ a 95 dB rating and are fairly large bookshelves but are highly regarded. They are no longer manufactured but come up for sale occassionally on Audigon.
When I talked with Sean @ Zu about the Tone bookshelves, he steered me towards the Druids as being a better fit. I felt they were too expensive for my budget and probably would require an upgrade in electronics because of their very high sensitivity.
The previously mentioned JM Reynaud Twin Signatures were also high on my list. I think Zybar on this board has or had a pair of the earlier models in his HT and is very positive about them. Maybe a little less sensitivity than you are looking for, but again highly regarded at a reasonable price point, probably would work w/ medium power tube electronics
Cain & Cain has introduced a miniature version of the Abbey called the Noogi which have gotten a nice reception on the Asylum but I haven't seen an editorial review yet.
Hope this helps.

BTW- I bought a pair of Vandersteen 1C's for a ridiculously cheap price and @ 90 dB they are a nice match. Probably wouldn't have a high WAF however they are extremely musical.

Edit:If you you have an interest in lower power amps, Louis Chochos @ Omega Speakers Systems http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/ markets very high quality mostly single driver speakers that people I trust highly endorse. They might even pass WAF.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Jul 2006, 06:54 pm »

I recently had the pleasure of auditioning the Aurum Cantus V2M (being driven by a 30wpc Cayin tube integrated, 30wpc), and was thoroughly impressed. As some of the NY Audio Ravers know, I own a pair of the original Aurum Cantus Leisure 2 monitors that I bought in China a few years ago...the new V2M really takes it up a couple of notches, especially if your room isn't too big. 87db, so they less sensitive than what you stated you're looking for, but I didn't really notice any big deficiencies with regards to producing a big/deep soundstage when I auditioned them. The only issue was that in very complex music, the imaging had some problems staying coherent (although I suspect this was a limitation of the tube amp rather than the speakers). $1500/pair.

http://www.vasaudio.com/product_v2m.htm