New Speaker Kit designs

Kevin Haskins · « **on:** 14 Jul 2006, 12:18 am »

I've been kicking around some ideas for new speaker designs. I'm just curious what types of designs people are most interested in seeing. A couple thoughts come to my mind but I'd like to get some feedback.

#1. A low cost speaker kit line. I'm doing a simple two-way design for the Puget Sound speaker contest.

http://www.freewebs.com/thepugetsound/

It triggered thoughts of offering a "high value" low-cost kit line to fill out the Exodus product line. It would have to use off-the-shelf drivers because the cost of driver development is cost prohibitive for a value line.

#2. Cost is not an object loudspeaker designs. I know a lot of people want to go nuts. My thoughts are that good design (not just the loudspeaker) is much more important than throwing money at a project and it is counter to my nature to run the price of a product up just to capitalize on someones obsessive compulsive behavior.

#3. Active Loudspeaker designs using the Exodus/Hypex amplifier platform. I'm going to do this even if people don't want them.

There are just too many great things you can do with a relatively simple active network that isn't possible or cost effective on a passive network. I'm thinking of some hybrid active/passive designs whereby we offer a couple bands of PEQ, Linkwitz Transform and other goodies that really make a huge difference in design flexibility and real listening room results.

Overall I'd like to hear some opinions. I've got plenty of ideas but the bottom line is that I want to design things that people actually want rather than what I find interesting. Hopefully I can do both.

Al Garay · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 12:47 am »

I'm all for cost-no-object, new benchmark type speaker that:
* handles close to full-range (down to low 20s)
* seamless integration between bass-midbass-mid-highs
* projects a large soundstage especially in width and depth
* gets out of the way of music, speakers disappear
* can go 0-60 in less than 3 seconds, meaning great dynamics that can handle peaks with ease
* satisfying even at low volumes (don't have to crank in order to come alive)
* very revealing without sounding cold or hot
* reliable design that's not going to blow crossover components (assuming passive xover)
* dimensions are not as important for statement speaker, though it will be easier to sell if the dimensions are not wider than 10-11", can be tall and deep... unless you can do a planar-electrostatic type speaker like a Soundlab A-1 or M-1 or a dynamic-horn like JBL K2 S9800
* must leave SL Orion and Salk HT3 owners in envy (these are good benchmarks)

It does not have to match your Exodus speakers, which are already excellent for HT. This should be a strong statement for all-out 2-channel, not limiting your options for compatibility.

Go high-end. There are plenty of options elsewhere.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 12:55 am »

Quote

#2. Cost is not an object loudspeaker designs. I know a lot of people want to go nuts. My thoughts are that good design (not just the loudspeaker) is much more important than throwing money at a project and it is counter to my nature to run the price of a product up just to capitalize on someones obsessive compulsive behavior

.

That's me

There are many audio consumers out there that want the very best. I would not consider this to be "capitalizing on someones obsessive compulsive behavior" rather providing a consumer with something they truly want, high quality. "Cost no object" does not mean you are taking advantage of someone.

I think all your ideas are very good and you should be successful with one or all of them. Pick one or two and run with them.

JohnR · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 01:01 am »

I don't know about cost no object but a high end dipole array would be pretty cool. The lower crossover point active. Maybe a form factor like the DDR but more drivers

Isn't the Kit41 already a "high value" kit? Looks like it

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 01:40 am »

Quote from: Al Garay on 14 Jul 2006, 12:47 am

I'm all for cost-no-object, new benchmark type speaker that:
* handles close to full-range (down to low 20s)
* seamless integration between bass-midbass-mid-highs
* projects a large soundstage especially in width and depth
* gets out of the way of music, speakers disappear
* can go 0-60 in less than 3 seconds, meaning great dynamics that can handle peaks with ease
* satisfying even at low volumes (don't have to crank in order to come alive)
* very revealing without sounding cold or hot
* reliable design that's not going to blow crossover components (assuming passive xover)
* dimensions are not as important for statement speaker, though it will be easier to sell if the dimensions are not wider than 10-11", can be tall and deep... unless you can do a planar-electrostatic type speaker like a Soundlab A-1 or M-1 or a dynamic-horn like JBL K2 S9800
* must leave SL Orion and Salk HT3 owners in envy (these are good benchmarks)

It does not have to match your Exodus speakers, which are already excellent for HT. This should be a strong statement for all-out 2-channel, not limiting your options for compatibility.

Go high-end. There are plenty of options elsewhere.

Well...all of this should be easy.

I have a pretty good idea of what I'd do engineering wise but how it will all come out is another matter. Also... to do something truly cutting edge takes big money.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 02:09 am »

Quote from: Response Audio on 14 Jul 2006, 12:55 am

That's me There are many audio consumers out there that want the very best. I would not consider this to be "capitalizing on someones obsessive compulsive behavior" rather providing a consumer with something they truly want, high quality. "Cost no object" does not mean you are taking advantage of someone.

I agree... I'd do a "cost is not an object" different than many though. I wouldn't cryo treat parts or buy hideously expensive magic parts no matter what my budget.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 02:23 am »

Quote from: JohnR on 14 Jul 2006, 01:01 am

I don't know about cost no object but a high end dipole array would be pretty cool. The lower crossover point active. Maybe a form factor like the DDR but more drivers

Isn't the Kit41 already a "high value" kit? Looks like it

Don't get me wrong... the WR-125 is a great 4" driver but it is only a 4" driver. As a midbass it is really stretching. If you can live with a slightly larger box a 6-7" midbass is always going to perform better in terms of output, extension and distortion across most of it's bandwidth. The concessions you make are a larger box and a lower crossover point which also tend to cost more.

I've been itching to do a dipole though.

jcake5 · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 02:48 am »

Gents,

Cost is no object might not be such a good path to follow, check out www.northcreekmusic.com. A great kit supplier with a pretty full product line getting out due to low volume.

For me it is high value medium cost with designs that are not the "typical box". For example, three way with open baffle mid and sealed woofer capable of mid 40 Hz f3. How about open baffle two way with active sub. These systems really can keep the cost down and still provide very high performance.

Regards,
Eric

kfr01 · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 02:51 am »

Kevin:

My thoughts.

#1 - Do this if you think there's demand. One one hand, there are a lot of people out there that would like to get into speaker building, but don't want to spend a lot of money on their first project. On the other hand, if folks are going to put the time and energy into a project, they usually want to feel as if what they built is premium. Bald and I considered a bunch of options, DIY and otherwise, before we decided to build pairs of your 2641 kits. Our mantra was, "if we're going to spend a lot of time, energy and money on this, not to mention pissing off our significant others, we may as well make it count." i.e., they want to make their DIY efforts count. I imagine that this represents the majority out there. I don't know that there are -that- many chronic -kit- builders out there. Chronic speaker builders, from what I've observed on the forums, seem dedicated to trying "boundary pushing" designs or trying their own designs. But hey, if you have something in the works, I'd love to see it. I -could- be wrong, but value speakers seem to be a dime a dozen.

#2 - Yes, please. Don't go bonkers with crossover parts made of gold (or at least offer a sane option), but I think there's always going to be a market for a statement DIY speaker kit. These are the projects people love. "Make it count," again, was our mantra.

I'd vote against open baffle, just in terms of marketability. I don't see these being marketable to: (1) people in urban areas that don't have 4' on all sides of the speaker; (2) people that are interested in hybrid ht/stereo applications and, again, don't want to dedicate the space; and (3) people that, while given some flexibility with WAF, couldn't sell speakers in the middle of the room.

#3 - Can't wait to see this. Please don't make it $10k like Dan's Muse.

I can't wait to see what you decide. I've been extremely happy with your kits and your customer service.

Al Garay · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 04:45 am »

Kevin,

Don't assume these have to be new drivers. Being creative, you can get samples from major manufacturers (like Seas) or distributors like Andre, e-speakers. Heck, maybe even Harman International could send you some beryllium drivers.

While the ultimate kit may have to wait, you can still create a killer dipole with MTM main over an H-frame. The main woofers could be the 16ohm 7" Extremis drivers Al Wooley is planning to use on the 95db MTM, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25792.0 The tweeter could be the Usher's you have or something enticing like the Accuton C24-6 or Seas Excel T29CF-002 Crescendo. You have plenty of good options for the H-frame 10" or 12" woofers, Bravia or Tumult. JohnK's Nao or JonMarsh's Arvo (if it ever gets built) could be good examples.

kfr01 · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 05:12 am »

I guess as long as we're dreaming, I would love to see a full-range tower (4-way), all drivers sealed, with some active amplification/eq on the subwoofer driver to get it there. Adjustable would be dreamy.

I would vote heavily in favor of continuing to use xbl^2 drivers. I think the consistancy of the sound at all volume levels is amazing.

RAW · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 10:59 am »

Quote

While the ultimate kit may have to wait, you can still create a killer dipole with MTM main over an H-frame. The main woofers could be the 16ohm 7" Extremis drivers Al Wooley is planning to use on the 95db MTM, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25792.0

Al how you come up with this I have no idea.

First off we have never said we are doing our 95db MTM with a 16ohm Extremis !!

Never will use the Extremis at all in a MTM as far as I can ever see.

This new driver is a RAW ACOUSTICS DRIVER. As this was made public on our forum.
Not a extremis at all.

You can not even compair the RA165.16 and RA165.8 to the Extremis.These drivers are miles apart.

MaxCast · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 01:02 pm »

Quote from: RAW on 14 Jul 2006, 10:59 am

You can not even compair the RA165.16 and RA165.8 to the Extremis.These drivers are miles apart.

Looks like .64 to be exact

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 01:49 pm »

Quote from: jcake5 on 14 Jul 2006, 02:48 am

Gents,

Cost is no object might not be such a good path to follow, check out www.northcreekmusic.com. A great kit supplier with a pretty full product line getting out due to low volume.

For me it is high value medium cost with designs that are not the "typical box". For example, three way with open baffle mid and sealed woofer capable of mid 40 Hz f3. How about open baffle two way with active sub. These systems really can keep the cost down and still provide very high performance.

Regards,
Eric

Kit sales has special needs that don't tend to be scalable. They also are not real profitable from an investment prospective. Think about this for a moment. I can go out and represent almost any commercial loudspeaker company and I deal with a 50 point mark-up for selling their product. Or... I can design my own, do the R&D, invest money and make my own. The kits tend to sell for ..... about 50 points. The kits tend to cost less because there isn't a dealer network and there is some sweat equity in the building process but overall I'd make more money selling finished speakers of someone else's design. There would be less technical support, less of a capital investment and less time investment.

Why don't I? Good question.... you have to be nuts to be selling loudspeakers period. I've never seen such an overpopulated market segment. It certainly isn't the smartest investment from a dollars and cents perspective.

In addition I have a tremendous amount of time, prototyping, and investment in measurement gear & software. I've also built jigs to standardize my measurements and I probably have about 7K in various tools to allow me to do good design. I also have a lot of education dollars/time wrapped up in learning to do all of this.

The only reason to sell speaker kits period is because.... you are driven to design and sell them. You somehow find a way to make financial things work and you lower your head and go to work. Many of the guys who do this are fortunate in having other income. I'm not so I have to find ways to make the loudspeakers & other products at least pay for themselves.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 01:58 pm »

Quote from: kfr01 on 14 Jul 2006, 02:51 am

Kevin:

My thoughts.

#1 - Do this if you think there's demand. One one hand, there are a lot of people out there that would like to get into speaker building, but don't want to spend a lot of money on their first project. On the other hand, if folks are going to put the time and energy into a project, they usually want to feel as if what they built is premium. Bald and I considered a bunch of options, DIY and otherwise, before we decided to build pairs of your 2641 kits. Our mantra was, "if we're going to spend a lot of time, energy and money on this, not to mention pissing off our significant others, we may as well make it count." i.e., they want to make their DIY efforts count. I imagine that this represents the majority out there. I don't know that there are -that- many chronic -kit- builders out there. Chronic speaker builders, from what I've observed on the forums, seem dedicated to trying "boundary pushing" designs or trying their own designs. But hey, if you have something in the works, I'd love to see it. I -could- be wrong, but value speakers seem to be a dime a dozen.

#2 - Yes, please. Don't go bonkers with crossover parts made of gold (or at least offer a sane option), but I think there's always going to be a market for a statement DIY speaker kit. These are the projects people love. "Make it count," again, was our mantra. I'd vote against open baffle, just in terms of marketability. I don't see these being marketable to: (1) people in urban areas that don't have 4' on all sides of the speaker; (2) people that are interested in hybrid ht/stereo applications and, again, don't want to dedicate the space; and (3) people that, while given some flexibility with WAF, couldn't sell speakers in the middle of the room.

#3 - Can't wait to see this. Please don't make it $10k like Dan's Muse.

I can't wait to see what you decide. I've been extremely happy with your kits and your customer service.

I appreciate your input. The open baffle designs are pretty much 2-channel products. This board in general is more of a 2-channel crowd. The HT guys have more loudspeakers to place, less space and often you are balancing other priorities with the audio.

I doubt any of the designs I'll do in the near-term will be $10K products. Even with amplification included they should be significantly less than that number.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 02:08 pm »

Quote from: Al Garay on 14 Jul 2006, 04:45 am

Kevin,

Don't assume these have to be new drivers. Being creative, you can get samples from major manufacturers (like Seas) or distributors like Andre, e-speakers. Heck, maybe even Harman International could send you some beryllium drivers.

While the ultimate kit may have to wait, you can still create a killer dipole with MTM main over an H-frame. The main woofers could be the 16ohm 7" Extremis drivers Al Wooley is planning to use on the 95db MTM, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25792.0 The tweeter could be the Usher's you have or something enticing like the Accuton C24-6 or Seas Excel T29CF-002 Crescendo. You have plenty of good options for the H-frame 10" or 12" woofers, Bravia or Tumult. JohnK's Nao or JonMarsh's Arvo (if it ever gets built) could be good examples.

Samples are easy. I'm always more worried about production quantities and dealing with middlemen to source your drivers has it's own set of problems.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 02:12 pm »

Quote from: RAW on 14 Jul 2006, 10:59 am

Quote
While the ultimate kit may have to wait, you can still create a killer dipole with MTM main over an H-frame. The main woofers could be the 16ohm 7" Extremis drivers Al Wooley is planning to use on the 95db MTM, http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25792.0

Al how you come up with this I have no idea.

First off we have never said we are doing our 95db MTM with a 16ohm Extremis !!
Never will use the Extremis at all in a MTM as far as I can ever see.

This new driver is a RAW ACOUSTICS DRIVER. As this was made public on our forum.
Not a extremis at all.

You can not even compair the RA165.16 and RA165.8 to the Extremis.These drivers are miles apart.

I'd just say let's keep on subject.

RAW · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 05:40 pm »

Yes Kevin will do.
Just Al G never seams to get the correct info on any of our products and make a notice of a driver that is not made should be noted.
I was refering to the 16 ohm Extremis.

This was just making a clear point. No 16 ohm Extremis.

Funny I have already been contacted from this post and was asked were do you purchase 16 ohm Extremis!!!!

All the best going forward Kevin.

Al Garay · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 07:06 pm »

No offense intended by calling them Extremis. I looked at creativesounds.ca and thought they were part of the Extremis family. My wrong assumption. But it still doesn't excuse you being a total A##HOLE for your attacking remark. If you have issues, please take them directly and not on this thread.

Now back to the topic (which you so casually interrupted). Kevin does not misrepresent his products and delivers as promised.

MaxCast · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Jul 2006, 07:29 pm »

Easy guys, before Kevin has to open his can of whip-ass.