[James Romeyn]

Summit: MSRP $10,700
Room: 10' x 22 x 17, huge wood-frame ceiling soffit w/ open center, no visible treatments.  Primare CD, preamp & amp.  About 6 other pairs of speakers in the room, inputs not shorted.

RM30C-CDW-MLS-BH5-Auricaps, new 4/22/06, MSRP $4810: base price includes CDW (constant-directivity waveguide) & 6.5” Megawoofers $3580, MLS seamless hand-rubbed black $400, Black Hole 5 damping $280, Auricaps $550
Room: 8’ x 17 x 16, 3-sided acoustic ceiling soffit, Michael Green Room Tunes. 
Sony DVP-NS900V (all-SS $750 modification by TRL), control amp & ribbon array powered by Pathos Classic One Mk2, bass powered by ATI 1802 bipolar, all-Stan Warren recipe cables, dedicated 20A AC mains & hospital grade outlets, all contacts treated w/ Caig Pro Gold contact cleaner/enhancer.

Introduction

All known relevant differences are listed above for full disclosure, so give as much or little weight to my notes as you desire.  I drove about an hour each direction to hear the Summits on the recommendation of a kind & well-known AC member whose ears I trust.  For the record I’ve described some VMPS models as being not worth owning & have openly & honestly discussed negative aspects of the purchasing/owning experience.  I mention this to balance the boring, coming, predictable, irrelevant, & did I say boring & predictable posts that I’m too much a pro-VMPS partisan.  With all due respect to VMPS, I'm not much of a fan of their other models in comparison to the current production of the single model reviewed here w/ the above upgrades.  This flatly contradicts the partisan accusation.  Without having done a direct A-B comparison I might not recommend the Auricaps at full MSRP.       

I noted that both speakers utilize planar technology, the difference being the Summit’s taller & wider dipole ESL panel above 270 Hz, the RM30C using three 4” x 8” neodymium-magnet push-pull ribbons above 260 Hz.  (The midrange rear radiation is trapped in a sub-enclosure.  The midranges hand off to a monopole ribbon tweeter at 6.8 kHz.  The CDW is claimed to produce a 360-degree polar radiation w/ sharp skirts for the entire ribbon array.)     

Music Auditioned

Sabrina Original Motion Picture Soundtrack by John Williams, cut 1, Theme from Sabrina: Beautiful & well recorded grand piano & orchestra, great dynamic & musical contrast.  Starts w/ the solo piano in 6/8 time, joined later by a strong, sweeping orchestra, & then a sweet, gorgeous & almost tearfully soft ending, all within 4.5 minutes.  Played back on the right system the nuance of the piano adds much to the intimacy & listening enjoyment.  Flute, oboe, & woodwinds playing counterparts at lower levels in the background during the grand orchestral crescendos are superb.

Ray Bryant, Somewhere In France, cut 1, Take The A Train (Boogie): Live solo jazz/swing piano.  You would never guess this was recorded on…a cassette.  Great quality though recorded a little too close, a bit more room acoustic would be nice.  The soft sound of the piano’s mechanical parts & the pianist’s groans & stomps to the beat in the background add to the fun.  Ditto the audience reactions, all great.  Great, fast piano virtuosity; especially left hand speed, reach & dexterity.

Rickie Lee Jones, Girl At Her Volcano, cut 5, On The Boardwalk: Japanese pressing is better than & cheaper than the US pressing, don’t ask why.  For recording quality probably the best pop/jazz/crossover music I’ve heard, huge uncompressed dynamic punch & swings, excellent male vocal partner, jazzy, upbeat, fun, loose, extremely confident vocals from both singers.

Summit

The Summits were heard first, playing the music above in the order listed.  Initial reactions were very good, only wanting to hear more as I sat to the side while the pleasant salesman tuned the speakers’ bass equalizer section.  The transition between the bass & ESL panel seemed good.  The musical transparency was obvious, as was the absolute lack of any XO from 270 Hz up.  From my memory a long time ago hearing the discontinued $10k Martin Logan Prodigy, this was a step up in transparency, coherency, & overall quality. 

The Sabrina cut had great expanse of the soundstage & great height, great believable accuracy of presentation, was very emotional as I like it & expect it to sound, & the background counterparts were easily heard & added just what I expect them to add in musical flavor.  The ending had the poignant sweetness & sadness that it always does when played back on only higher quality systems w/ good musical qualities. 

The Ray Bryant cut was also very good, but here I noticed some loss of dynamic detail & punch that I’ve heard & come to love on this music.  The transparency & accuracy were still there however.  This was the first time I noticed some loss to the body, impact & density to the music that I’ve heard on other systems. 

The Rickie Lee Jones cut started to show a real crack in the armor.  It wasn’t bad overall, but there are two specific extremely brief dynamic peaks that were missing, one about a third into the cut, the other the final whack at the end.  Again, the vocal transparency & realism were there 100%, but the density & impact were attenuated.  The most glaring fault was apparent minor but audible distortion to the vocals on peaks.  This could have been the amp running out of power.     


RM30C-CDW-MLS-BH5-Auricaps

I returned home about 1.5-2 hours later.  The system was off so I turned it on & set the level moderately high & left the room for about 15 minutes.  This system does not take long to sound good.  I first listened casually to the Rickie Lee Jones cut.  Initial reaction was more body & more density to the overall sound, but maybe at the cost of some transparency.  I let the system warm up for about 30-45 minutes then returned, playing the same music in the same sequence as in the Summit audition.

Sabrina: Similar transparency, but the music “breathed” w/ greater dynamic contrast, which seemed to increase the level of emotional involvement & interaction w/ the music.  There appeared to especially be more body to the piano’s notes, more thickness & realism, with no loss of transparency.  There appeared to be greater coherency to the performance throughout the range, from the bass through the treble.  My personal suspicion is that the Summit’s change from omnipolar dispersion in the bass range to dipolar dispersion above 270 Hz may be causing some discontinuity.  The RM30C appeared to have greater image specificity & image density.  Stage width & height possibly favored the Summits (larger room).  There was similar audibility & enjoyment to the counterpoint woodwinds during the orchestral peaks.  The image specificity seemed better both in 3-dimensionality & location.     

Ray Bryant: Greater notice of the fun, loose, swinging, nature of the music; greater density & realism of the piano strings; transparency similar; the overall advantage of the RM30C seemed to show up more than in the Sabrina cut.  The sensation of being right there in the room w/ the piano was simply much greater.  The instrument’s power & control was so much more apparent, without any down side of listener fatigue whatsoever. 

Rickie Lee Jones: This cut produced the largest advantage for the RM30C.  The two huge dynamic peaks came through unscathed, almost jumping into the room & startling an unprepared listener.  There was still no fatigue factor, if anything just a desire to hear more of the same; huge impact in the presentation.  The signature texture & individuality of each instrument was far more apparent, probably due to being the highest quality recording of the three.  There was better positioning in space of each instrument, w/ an equal advantage in all three planes.  Ditto the image density, size & space surrounding each instrument.  No audible distortion on vocal peaks, contrary to the problems encountered in this area w/ the Summits (again, could have been amp clipping). 

Conclusion

The short version is I’m not replacing my RM30C at this time.  I liked the Summits very much, but when I returned home & heard the same music on the RM30C, the sound was better in every way except for possibly stage width & height (the room the Summit’s were in is larger in all three planes).  There is a 53” 3-beam rear projector TV between the RM30C’s (screen is draped w/ two thick blankets while listening to music).  If the Summits do have greater transparency, the RM30C has a greater advantage in coherency, image palpability & 3-dimensionality, a huge advantage in impact & dynamic envelope, & portray pace in greater abundance.  I would say the level of emotional involvement & satisfaction is very high w/ the Summits, higher w/ the RM30C; listener fatigue was very low w/ both models.   

The RM30C, properly setup & broken in, still produces the best overall sound I’ve heard.  The only exception may be the properly setup Infinity IRS III’s in a dedicated soundroom, circa mid-‘80s, at the home of the owner of Landmark greeting cards & calendars in Corte Madera.  I was there w/ Brian Cheney to deliver a pair of VMPS’ then-flagship SuperTower IIa/R for the living room in the same home.  One mark against the IRS was the motion-sensing error-correction circuitry for the bass, w/ microphones attached to the woofers: It appeared you could hear its effect.  When the huge drum whacks occurred during Stravinksy’s Firebird Suite, you first heard the huge dynamic transient attack, & then it seemed you could hear the correction circuit overdamp the signal.  The response delay was audible.  Obviously modern digital circuits are hundreds or thousands of times quicker, so this comment may mean little in the context of today’s correction technology.     

[ss397]

my problems with martin logan have been the same as yours. i have always felt that the handoff from the woofer to the panel has been problematic. i have never listened to the summit but have heard most of the line below it. these speakers have never really done it for me. they are very good, but i always felt something was lost in the translation to sound waves. this is just an opinion and i do not claim any expertise, the speaker can shine on some material and if you love it great, just not my cup of tea.

[prokennex]

The Summits are now selling for $7500 at Costco. Kind of unusual.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Produc...&topnav=browse=

[James Romeyn]

My clicking on the link produced "The page can not be found".   

I'd say any brand, including ML, discounted 31% at Costco, is about to be tossed completely overboard by any & every high end B&M store.  Can you imagine having just paid full boat then seeing that?  It would seem a reasonable bet that the brand is in deep deep doo doo.  Gayle Sanders sold the marquee not too long ago.

[prokennex]

If you go to Costco's home page

http://www.costco.com

once there enter a search "martinlogan" should bring up three results, displaying the summits $7499. along with a sub and I believe a centre channel.

[zybar]

If you go to Costco's home page

http://www.costco.com

once there enter a search "martinlogan" should bring up three results, displaying the summits $7499. along with a sub and I believe a centre channel.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11140405&whse=&topnav=&browse=&s=1

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=&topnav=&search=martin%20logan&N=0&Ntt=martin%20logan&cm_re=1-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search

George

[TheChairGuy]

The hi end community is a teeny tiny business....12 month sales in Costco (it may just be on Costco.com, not in the stores - my product is only on .com as we didn't want to piss off Sam's Club) is probably 3 years worth of business at all the 'high end' stores in North America.

As I was told by a (slightly drunken) VP-Sales from another company fairly recently:

"Your business is screwed if you sell Wal-mart, Target and Costco...and your business is screwed if you don't sell Wal-mart, Target and Costco"

He was talking mass market items, of course....but it's kinda related as it's all product, ya' know?

[ted_b]

ML has sent a cease and desist order to Costco, sent out a letter to owners (see their website) and is looking for the supplier.  In the meantime I'm not sure how many will buy an $8k speaker from Costco anyway, but it sure makes one wonder about the brand.

[James Romeyn]

Thje ML cease & desist order was promptly tossed into the non recirculating file at Costco, not worth the the price of the paper & toner it was written on.  They probably get a thousand a week such stupid letter, written only to protect ML from consumer & dealer complaints.  Anyone ever heard of "this is a free country"?  The only things price protected are things like milk & autombobile fuel.  ML's sum total potential response is to stop selling to the original certified supplier, & they can't even legally do that w/o a hell of a lot of proof that the certified supplier sold against the contract rules, meaning proof that the dealer had or should have had actual knowledge that the buyer was a reseller.  Such is the nature of not living in a pure socialist or communist state.  It's called free trade.     

Krell would have had the supplier's home & car blown up by now...kidding... just a reflection of the hard-core warnings at the Krell website....

[ted_b]

Jim,
But if Costco is not an approved ML dealer don't they have the right to refuse service?  Buying "as is" from a Costco warehouse might scare me...even at 25% off.

[BobC]

This has been a hot topic over on the ML Owners forum.  I think the general opinion is that the Costco return policy is very liberal (5 years, no questions asked?) and offsets the ML servicing concern.

[Brian Cheney]

I have accepted Costco's purchase order for 10,000pr of RM 30 at below dealer and n/720 terms.  However, since it will take us about 12 years to deliver, VMPSers need not be concerned about their speakers' precipitous drop in value thanks to Costco pricing policies!

Really folks, this story is so bizarre I cannot fathom how it could happen.
It is likely the product is being "drop-shipped" to Costco customers direct from the factory or its authorized agent.  Also, you do not forfeit factory warranty or service for an electrostat just to save a few bucks on the original purchase.

You may as well look for a new Rolls Royce on Ebay.

[woodsyi]

Would ML make money if they sold as OEM and let Costco rebadge them "Kirkland" speakers?  Service would be through Costco customer service and ML only deal with Costco for repairs and what not. 

[James Romeyn]

Ted
I suppose one of the many limitations in ML's new product limited warranty could be to cover only products purchased new from an authorized dealer.  In that case I suppose it indirectly means the warranty is non-transferable. 

I agree there probably aren't many people shopping for $10,700 speakers at Costco, but on the other hand if you loved the model & saw them there, you might be tempted.  I waited for a 1/2 hour at the local Costco pizza/hot dog eating area to meet someone recently.  I can't believe how many big screens exited the store in that time period...ML's cease & desist order to Costco can be enforced as much as ordering people not to walk on your side of the street.     

[James Romeyn]

Would ML make money if they sold as OEM and let Costco rebadge them "Kirkland" speakers?  Service would be through Costco customer service and ML only deal with Costco for repairs and what not. 

How 'bout "Kirkland" brand, Kirkstats model name, endorsed by Captain James T. Kirk (Wm Shatner), w/ pictures of the Starship Enterprise as the company logo on the fronts of the speakers & all over the shipping cartons...the guys who deliver & set them up have Spock ears, & give the Vulcan hand shake & will do mind melds for tips...


Brian I'm taking bets on your delivery deadline of 12 years.....

[95bcwh]

This has been a hot topic over on the ML Owners forum.  I think the general opinion is that the Costco return policy is very liberal (5 years, no questions asked?) and offsets the ML servicing concern.

With that generous return policy.. why not just buy one.. listen to it for 4 years and return it?   

[ctviggen]

I plan on buying a Panasonic AE 900 overhead/front projector from Costco.  They had a sale recently for about $200 less than anywhere else.  As long as Costco does not perform any function that reduces the trademark of a product (as in repackaging the product), they can sell the product and cease-and-desist orders don't matter and would not win in court.  Now, ML might be able to sue a distributor under the terms of the agreement with the distributor. 

[ctviggen]

By the way, as for the review, I don't like the fact that these were completely different setups and rooms.  (Not to mention quite a long drive -- who can remember what something sounded like two hours ago?  Personally, I have a hard time reviewing DACs when I can instantly switch back and forth.) This doesn't seem like a valid comparison.  If it was the same room, same interconnects, same everything except speakers, that might be valid; as it is, it's interesting data but not necessarily reliable.

[James Romeyn]

By the way, as for the review, I don't like the fact that these were completely different setups and rooms.  (Not to mention quite a long drive -- who can remember what something sounded like two hours ago?  Personally, I have a hard time reviewing DACs when I can instantly switch back and forth.) This doesn't seem like a valid comparison.  If it was the same room, same interconnects, same everything except speakers, that might be valid; as it is, it's interesting data but not necessarily reliable.

You'd come under the "little weight" (or no weight) category I mentioned below in the review.

All known relevant differences are listed above for full disclosure, so give as much or little weight to my notes as you desire. 

On the other hand...

For over a year Brian's DAC was a modded Perpetual Tech w/ outboard PS.  I visited after a month's absence or more & had absolutely no knowledge of any changes in the playback chain.  After just a few seconds listening to music I asked him what had changed (for the better).  The sum total change was Dusty's CIA DAC.  I've had a few other similar experiences. 

IMO the CURRENT RM30C are a big step up in overal quality vs. the Summit, though this hobby is so personal that to object to another audiophile's opinion that was exactly the opposite would be totally meritless.  They're both good. 

If I didn't mention it before, I would only compare this factory assembled current RM30C w/ upgrades to another factory assembled pair (not a field upgrade by someone other than VMPS).  Reasons being the tweeter's mechanical/structural mods, which look quite elaborate & easy to screw up w/o prior training, & apparently B is now hand-tweeking each individual pair in his soundroom.  If I had a stock tweeter I'd certainly pay VMPS to mod it rather than tackle it myself.  Probably most are more capable than me so this advice worth what you paid.

When the speakers arrived the entire system except the CDP was new & seemed to take forever to burn in.  One way to minimize output while burning in is to site speakers face-to-face w/ one speaker's inputs inverted.  Both channels must be in phase for normal listening later.   

When my room is done I'd like to hear the current Salk HT3's in it & compare a high-quality hard drive/DAC to the TRL/Sony.