DVD-A

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 5 Jul 2006, 02:29 am »

I have invested some $4500.00 in my CD front end...and, for the most part, I like it as much as any heard at shows, dealers, etc. No matter what or where CD playback always leaves me wanting. It works as mildly irritating background music - never confused with the real deal.

I only more recently returned to vinyl...and found myself bopping to the music again. Despite it's notable drawbacks (too many to list) it is inviting and, for me, I can't even listen to classical on CD any more without noting so many deficiencies. XRCD, Mapleshade and other audiophile labels merely polish the terd. In my opinion, every $1 spent on your TT system, should be one less dollar you spend on CD. It's inconvenient, but it's enjoyable, dammit

About two years ago I got a free (sampler) disc from AIX Records - I tossed it in my CD pile never to be heard from again - until today. As I was thumbing thru I remembered my Pioneer 656 is a DVD/DVD-A machine...hey, why not try it out? I tried that Pioneer as a standalone CD player - it is gawd awful. As a transport, it fared little better a few years ago. So it sits in my extremely modest video system getting a workout playing Teletubbies and Sesame Street by day and a few library and BlockBuster rentals ever so often at night. I thought the audio from DVD's was serviceably good.

I DO mean modest video system:

Onkyo 30 watt stereo receiver (20 years old)
24" Sony (tube) TV
Pioneer 656 player
Omni Audio sub/sat (purchased for $260 I think 10 years ago - think Bose Acoustimass mains and a powered sub)
Monster Cable Powerbar conditioner (I don't know which one - it's pretty good, tho)

It's about three steps up from garbage...but it's as much interest as I have in video and so it stays.

I popped that AIX DVD-A disc in and was slack jawed. It was better, more enjoyable music, with a notable increase in resolution than CD in my main system...that I have lavished with too much time and attention over the years. It is the one digital format heard (I had my run at SACD...it wasn't worth changing over from CD for it I felt) that is the equal of vinyl, and in fact probably surpasses it. It is THAT good

To think that I wasn't hearing nearly all of it as it is created for true 5.1 surround and I am operating with only 2.1 (not even a center channel other than the telly-visions cheapo built-in)

I know I'm not new to the party on this as the technology is 5-6 years old now, but I am just shocked how it's beeen given short shrift by the average audiophile. It is really good and it doesn't take but a $150 dual or universal format machine to hear it. If any of you have a universal format machine, stock or modded, and you've been tinkering only around with CD and/or SACD....you owe yourself a $18.99 DVD-A to try. It's really good and I'm truly excited to hear it versus good vinyl in my main rig. It's better than SACD and CD in one fell stroke.

That day is gonna' come as with DVD-A you have the some/most of the convenience of CD, with quality and naturalness that is the equal of, or surpasses, vinyl playback (and all of it's inconveniences)

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 02:54 am »

I love DVD-A. While I can't say catagorically that it sounds better than SACD, most of my DVD-As sound better than most of my SACDs. It's a shame that the format never really caught fire with the masses, but there's a wealth of good classical out on DVD-A.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 04:49 am »

It beats me who this Ohman guy is, or who his possible schill might be benefitting...but I found this on the net and it's an interesting read:

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 05:35 pm »

As I'm not sure if it's the quality of the purpose-recorded 96/24 bit AIX Record that sounds sooo good...or the technology itself...I bought a couple used DVD-A discs to discover more.

I bought Neil Youngs 'Harvest' (to see how an analog master of an CD I know well translates in the DVD-A technology) and Eric Clapton's 'Riding with the King' (to find a more recent vintage recording that I'm familiar with translates to it). It was a cheap investment in the most intriguing playback technology I've found yet.

Also, I found this list on the 'net...the fella's not much of a classical enthusiast, but he seems to be fully vested in understanding DVD-A:

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB77&Number=418064&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 09:45 pm »

AIX Record all sound fantastic, although they don't get much for high-profile artists. I have a few of their DVD-As and they're uniformly excellent. Naxos is a great source for classical discs, be it DVD-A, SACD or CD.

nathanm · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 11:00 pm »

Any NATIVE recording purposely created for the format is going to be more enjoyable than an old recording updated for surround in my experience. There are exceptions though. Specifically I'm thinking of Yes "Fragile" and ELP "Brain Salad Surgery" perhaps because the nature of it being progressive rock. You can accept the fact of a synthesizer flying around the room whereas vocals and guitars scattered about seems "wrong". I'd also put Bjork "Vespertine" up there, which I think was originally released as stereo. Metallica and Megadeth DVDs didn't so squat for me, I preferred stereo. Same thing with the surround mix on a couple Elton John SACDs. If the music doesn't lend itself to the format it seems to just sound goofy to have sound in the rears. It would be fine if it wasn't anything direct, but just room reverb perhaps. The AIX choir stuff is ideal for the format because it has a real world, source-to-speaker relationship. You could sit in the middle of a circle of singers and get localized sounds whereas a rock band doesn't quite fit into that model. It will be interesting to see if enough people are willing to take advantage of the format in the future. (if there is one, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if all surround music formats went the way of the dodo) Cause right now finding discs I might like are few and far between. And so damn pricey...

I tried hard to tell the difference between 96K and 192K on that AIX sampler, but it just didn't happen for me. The recording is good enough that it doesn't matter. It all comes back to the recording. Formats and storage mediums are a side issue IMO.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 11:03 pm »

Rob,

Yeah, I liked those Naxos prices at $13-$14.99 per.

Frankly, I've found a good many DVD's to generally sound as good as or better than CD's...so the completely uncompressed DVD-A format might be something to behold after all for recordings, old or new, orignally transferred to tape or recorded digitally.

Given that we are the only ones talking about it would seem to indicate not much of a following at AC....too bad.

Hey audiophools - if you are looking for a format as easy to use as CD, with the type of natural musicality of vinyl...but with greater resolution, dynamics, lower noise floor and good lower and upper frequency performance...you owe it to yourselves to look at DVD-Audio.

I haven't been this pumped about the prospect of good sound in months...CD was really becoming a dead end street for me. And tho I do love my vinyl, it's such a P-I-A

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 11:16 pm »

Since I got my first CD player in 1991, I thought CD playback had problems. All the years before and after, even stepping up into big $$$ CD front end for myself it never convinced me, otherwise.

My foray into SACD told me, it too, had major shortfalls. The treble response was simply abysmal, among other problems.

Vinyl has no more than 60-70 db of range...but sounds natural and pleasant.

DVD-A sounds great...so I'm not so sure that formats and storage mediums are a side issue...I think it's a lot more important than that.

Frankly, I'm thinking pre and power amplification, the endless debate of tubes vs. SS vs. 'digital' are more the side issue if the recording medium is stellar. Vinyl still sounds good on some pretty old and or cheapy amplification and DVD-A sounds just fine on my cheapo/nee garbage video system run by 20 year old Onkyo receiver.

Woodsea · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Jul 2006, 04:31 am »

I just feel more involved with DVD-A. The sound is just incredible. Even though the recording isn't up to snuff, Metallica is enthralling in surround!

Digi-G · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Jul 2006, 01:11 pm »

Ooh Ooh, You can count me in on the DVD-Audio wagon. I think it's a great format and I cringe whenever I hear people (who usually haven't heard it) knock it. I think it's somewhat short-sighted to think that NO digital format will ever sound as good as vinyl. I've got SACD too, and while I can't unequivocally (sp?) say that DVD-A is better than SACD, I can say that not all Hi-Rez disks are equal. Honestly, I've got all of my hi-rez disks lumped together and I usually don't distinguish whether I'm listening to SACD or DVD-A.

Also, I can't say if it's the hi-rez or the surround that's jaw-dropping - probably the combination. If it's done right it's simply phenomenal. The reality is there's lots of links in that chain (original recordings, remastering, surround choices, playback system), so lots of potential for problems.

And I've actually had pretty good luck with older recordings transfered to these formats. I think this IS a case of the originals being recorded so well, albeit analog. Some examples of excellent older recordings would be:

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (DVD-A)
Eagles - Hotel California (DVD-A, I think)
Elton John - Madman..., Goodbye Yellow..., Captain Fantastic (SACD)
REM - Automatic for the People (DVD-Audio, I think)
Neil Young - Harvest (DVD-Audio)
Moody Blues - To Our Childrens Childrens Children (SACD)
Steve Miller Band - Fly Like an Eagle (DTS)

Some that I haven't been impressed with:
Rolling Stones - Hot Rocks (SACD, stereo only - sounded terrible to me)
Silverline Series (Women on Top, Classic Rock, etc.) (DVD-A)
I'm sure there's others that I can't think of right now.

Yeah, the prices are too high (does this equal high demand?), but the selection does keep getting better and better.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Jul 2006, 03:49 pm »

Cool list Digi-G - thanks.

I've got 'Harvest' coming in a few days - the CD version is sterile - so it'll be nice to have a more emotional version of it on a quieter and more durable format than vinyl like DVD-A.

I know the technology is made for 5 channel, but you still get fantastic resolution and naturalness in only two channels. I might just make the jump and invest in 5 channels for the full experience, tho

jswallac · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Jul 2006, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 5 Jul 2006, 11:16 pm

Frankly, I'm thinking pre and power amplification, the endless debate of tubes vs. SS vs. 'digital' are more the side issue if the recording medium is stellar. Vinyl still sounds good on some pretty old and or cheapy amplification and DVD-A sounds just fine on my cheapo/nee garbage video system run by 20 year old Onkyo receiver.

Could not agree more. It is almost comical how much attention (and money) is spent fine tuning the preamp, amp, cables, etc. to get that 2% better sound, when the software is far and away the limiting factor.

In operations there is a concept known as the theory of constraints. Say you have a process that requires 4 machines to complete. Three of then (1, 3, and 4) are state of the art and operate at very high speed. Machine 2 is older and slower. It does not matter how much you tweak the other three in increase speed, machine number 2 will be the bottleneck and slow the entire process, the weak link so to speak.

From what I have heard over and over in countless systems, it is the recording that determines how good the output. Garbage in, garbage out.

It seems we should be putting our efforts into improving the media rather than tweaking a cable or rolling a tube. This thread got me thinking that there must be ways to improve things with a PC. I came across this software that promises to turn Redbook into DVD-A quality. http://www.cirlinca.com/welcome.htm

Not sure if it really works, but it sure looks interesting.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Jul 2006, 05:39 pm »

Great link, jswallac

I couldn't download their user guide....but this is a pretty cool teaser:

Quote

Cirlinca Inc. is dedicated to provide software tools to bring existing audio media to a new life. Our first product - DVD-Audio Solo - will help you to convert your CD collection or vinyl LP records collection to the state of the art high resolution DVD-Audio standard.

With CD, you can write them at the original 44.1Khz sampling rate discs and fit up to 7 CDs on a single DVD-Audio disc. Or you can upsample them at up to 192Khz/24bits with our professional quality algorithms and rediscover them. Our upsampling software takes full advantage of the power of modern PCs and implements multi-stages upsampling with distortion free digital filtering that is superior to hardware based upsampling.

With LP, you can record them at high resolution and preserve the richness and depth of the analog recording, for convenience, archival or to enjoy them in multiple places.

You're limited by the transfer to CD in copying them over, and the upsampling to 192/24 might or might not be beneficial.

No compression is needed in recording - so it's boon for bands wanting to record themselves. Better than CD merely (not solely, perhaps) because there is more storage capacity on the DVD disc. A good deal, if it works, for $34.95 for some.

jswallac · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2006, 05:51 pm »

I also tried unsuccessfully to download the user guide. I send them an email to see if they can fix the link.

MaxCast · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Jul 2006, 02:01 pm »

Hey thanks for the HTS link, Chair Guy.
I enjoy DVD-A and SACD through a little Pio 563 and find the two channel stuff amazing for the price of the player. I'm neutral on surround...receivers leave a bit to be desired. I've had better luck through a 5 channel pre but bass mgmt screws everything up. I haven't stayed with the Hi-rez forums as AA cause most posts argue about which format will die first

I've always wanted to try AIX. Will have to give the sampler a shot, however, I feel the label is like Mapleshade.

I have more SACD's than DVD-A's and like CD we are at the mercy of the studio

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Jul 2006, 02:58 am »

Some surround mixes are good, some are awful. But I feel if even one sounds good, then potentially most could sound good.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Jul 2006, 03:11 am »

I've been reading up the past couple days on DVD-A and DVD-A players....there are some machines that downmix to stereo at 192/24, but only 96/24 in 5.1 surround. All the more reason to like it better in stereo.

Notably, with good reviews at it's price, the Cambridge Azur 540 player.

MaxCast, I'm not sure if AIX gives (a few dollars in postage as I remember it) away the sampler anymore...it was a couple years ago that I got it.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Jul 2006, 05:58 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 8 Jul 2006, 03:11 am

I've been reading up the past couple days on DVD-A and DVD-A players....ther are some machines that downmix to stereo at 192/24, but only 96/24 in 5.1 surround. All the more reason to like it better in stereo.

Notably, with good reviews at it's price, the Cambridge Azur 540 player.

MaxCast, I'm not sure if AIX gives (a few dollars in postage as I remember it) away the sampler anymore...it was a couple years ago that I got it.

I'm not really sure there's any audible diff between 192/24 and 96/24. Guess I'll have to avail myself of the rare opportunities to compare the two.

mgalusha · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Jul 2006, 02:33 pm »

Quote

I couldn't download their user guide....but this is a pretty cool teaser:

They may have fixed the link as I was able to download it. Sadly there is very little there. It's just the .chm help file, probably the one from the application.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 05:31 am »

I have become so unenamored with CD of late, and really since I first heard it all those many years ago, I am praying that DVD-A fulfills the promise of digital without the fuss and less pain. Vinyl is lovely, but such a bother as my listening tends to be all day in my office.

Hoping those DVD-A"s bought last week are stellar...I was reading an article back in 2002 with Neil Young where he said DVD-A is what CD should have been all along. He refused to re-master a couple of his classic records as they were so butchered by CD. He has no qualms releasing anything he has done on DVD-A, however.