Taking first step out of mass-fi, need used amp reccomedations in the $500 range

beady · « **on:** 3 Jul 2006, 05:23 pm »

Hello, first post here. I'm looking for the "best" amp I can buy for $500 (ish), new or used. Yeah I know, "best" is subjective, but I'll try to qualify things.

My listening room is also my den. It's about 15x30x9, so it's a decent sized room. My musical tastes lean towards electronic music, so I need an amp that can handle bass and stay tight and clean. However, I am not a one-genre type person, I also enjoy jazz, blues, acoustic recordings, rock, etc. About the only type of music I dislike is country.

I am recently married, so I do have the WAF to factor into everything

However, I did just buy some Sennheiser 280 Pro headphones, and built a Cmoy amp to power them. When she listened to Dido on them, her eyes got all big and she was enthralled, never having heard anything close to that quality of sound (truth be told, I hadn't either). So..... if I can get a decent sounding intro-to-hi-fi system setup for $1000 or less, and she likes the sound, I can probably expand later on. However, if I drop a grand and it doesn't sound much better than my 13 year old integrated Kenwood receiver and KLH bookshelves, I'll have a hell of a time justifying more of a cash outlay later

OK, enough rambling. I've been doing quite a bit of reading here and elsewhere online, looking for "great"(good?) sounding amps which won't break the bank. I don't have any problems with buying used, and I figure I can get the most for my money that way anyway. My short list so far is:

Hafler (any of the "P series")
Anthem (MCA mkII)
ATI (1202, 1802)
old Bryston 3b
Adcom (555 series)

I'd like quite a bit of power so I have a lot of headroom, and bridgeablitly is a big plus, as I can use the amp as my sub amp later and buy a better sounding amp to run my mains.

I'm a DIY kind of guy, and have wood working tools, so I'm going to build a pair of Zaph Audio Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.htmlspeakers for my mains. Perhaps the metal cone will play a factor is an amp to power them? I've read the Hafler's have a warm sound and might compliment the drivers?

I will build a sub also, and I have a crappy old-school Kicker 12 I can try for now and see if it helps, or just muddies up the sound compared to the Seas and a decent amp. I suspect it will sound like crap compared to what I hope to purchase.

Also, I'm not in any real hurry to get an amp, as I haven't even built the speakers yet. So, I can afford to take my time and look for a good deal.

Thanks for any amp ideas you can throw my way,

Mike

mfsoa · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 05:43 pm »

Welcome,
Since you sound openminded, I'm sure the folks here can help guide you to outstanding sound for whatever pricerange you want!

For an amp, if your DIY skills apply to electronics as well, you might want to try a DIY Class D UCD (Universal Class D) amp.
I think they would match well with your listening priorities.

I have not built one, but I think DIYCable is a good source for such.

Good luck

slurve · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 07:32 pm »

Mike

At that price point I would definetly recommend the Nad integrateds. Lots of headroom, bridgeable, and it is actually what amp John krutke used(C370) with the Seas aluminum kit. Or are you looking for just a power amp, if so my answer would change a little. Drop a PM if you get a chance.

J.

Bob Reynolds · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 09:20 pm »

I agree with the NAD integrateds recommendation. They are one of the few that easily separate the preamp section from the power section. This is the only reliable way to add a subwoofer later. Creek is another one to consider.

Since you are considering ATI, I'd look very hard at their 2002 balanced multichannel amp. One hell of a bargain. The downside is what preamp to mate with it.

beady · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 10:34 pm »

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm aiming for higher sound quality, soundstage, etc than what I've seen a class D amp can give right now. They seem OK for a sub amp perhaps, but not up to par for 2-channel listening.

Also, everything I've read says seperates are the way to go, compared to integrateds, in terms of sound quality.

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned I like electronic music, I'm afriad that may have biased you guys into thinking I'm in the "tizz and boom" crowd, which I most certainly am not.

I've done all the reading on speaker placement in my listening room, room treatments, etc. I really want to move to the "next level" in quality sound; well above and beyond anything you'd find in a mass-fi store or box chain store. I'd really like to hear the "holographic" sound I've read so much about. So, soundstage depth, clarity and transient response are high on my list of priorities.

Surely, there are amps that retailed in the $1500 range new that sound really good, tight bass, great imaging, etc, and can be picked up for $500 nowadays. Even if the amp is 10 years old, if it sounds good and does what I want, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be 100% cosmetically perfect, just needs to be 100% in the performance arena.

Thanks,

Mike

ss397 · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 10:41 pm »

check out the odyssey audio khartago amp, and the odyssey $1500.00 system. hard to beat for the price and it puts you into hi end audio.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 11:19 pm »

Just another option to consider but one of Jolida's Hybrids would be a very good value. Either a new 1701 or maybe a used 1501 would be within your budget.

Tirade · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Jul 2006, 11:34 pm »

Quote from: beady on 3 Jul 2006, 10:34 pm

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm aiming for higher sound quality, soundstage, etc than what I've seen a class D amp can give right now. They seem OK for a sub amp perhaps, but not up to par for 2-channel listening.

Also, everything I've read says seperates are the way to go, compared to integrateds, in terms of sound quality.

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned I like electronic music, I'm afriad that may have biased you guys into thinking I'm in the "tizz and boom" crowd, which I most certainly am not.

I've done all the reading on speaker placement in my listening room, room treatments, etc. I really want to move to the "next level" in quality sound; well above and beyond anything you'd find in a mass-fi store or box chain store. I'd really like to hear the "holographic" sound I've read so much about. So, soundstage depth, clarity and transient response are high on my list of priorities.

Surely, there are amps that retailed in the $1500 range new that sound really good, tight bass, great imaging, etc, and can be picked up for $500 nowadays. Even if the amp is 10 years old, if it sounds good and does what I want, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be 100% cosmetically perfect, just needs to be 100% in the performance arena.

Thanks,

Mike

Maybe I can help you out..

Someone from AC gave me a good deal on this amp back about a year ago so Im willing to pass that on to you.

Coda-Continuum Linestage Precision Class A/AB Amplifier. Wayne over at Bolder Cable Co. upgraded all the caps and gave it a clean bill of health. Amp retails for $2200, sells on Audiogon for $900ish.

Specs : Stage 3.2:
200 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms,
400 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms
800 Watts per channel into 2 Ohms
Precision Bias Class A operation to 15 Watts,
sliding to Class AB at higher output levels

Photo: http://coda-continuum.com/product/stage2photo.html

Manufacturers Site

http://coda-continuum.com

Something to note is they have a trade-in program where you can trade in any older amp and get 50% of its original retail value in the form of a credit (so roughly $1100) in case you come into more $$ later.

Check the reviews on the net for the Coda stuff and then let me know if youre interested.

fredgarvin · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Jul 2006, 12:06 am »

Check into the Onix specials at av123.com they have tube and ss amps in your range. I wouldn't expect a quality "holographic wall of sound" without upgrading your speakers however. Ideally you would mate your amp to your speakers to highlight their strengths. Good luck!

JLM · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Jul 2006, 12:09 pm »

Welcome beady,

A Squeeze Box/Khartago/Epiphony system could be had for under $1700 that would provide remote access to your entire ripped library and internet streaming. DIY a sub. SB can be modded later.

All this components are high value, provide relatively high quality sound, low maintenance, and are physically small. Check out the Odyessy circle below for the Khartago amp and Epiphony speakers. Boulder Cables and Red Wine Audio both mod the SB and have circles here. The SB has a digital volume control, so no pre-amp is needed (if CD and internet streaming is all you want).

Speakers can be moved out into the room for serious listening (to help imaging). Smaller/lighter the better. Effective room treatments are available from RealTraps or GIK (see the acoustics circle) or DIY'ed from 6 - 8 pcf fiberglass and covered with silkscreening for higher WAF. Don't discount the new Class D amps so quickly (the best sounding amp I've ever owned are Channel Island VMB-1 chip monoblocks, but Dusty has moved onto all Class D since, see their circle below).

IMO NAD, Rotel, Jolida, etc. are between big box mass marketed and the hi-end. My experience with them is probably a bit out of date and limited, but I know you can do better for the money. Check out the trading circle as someone had a Khartago for sale.

Speakers have the biggest impact on sound quality, especially for the money.

Carlman · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Jul 2006, 01:55 pm »

I would recommend a B&K ST-202. These are wonderful sounding amps and a good value on the used market. Some folks mod them. A modified Hafler might be a good option also.... but the B&K I mentioned would be my preference.

Another good amp in my opinion is the Marantz MA500 monoblock. You can find those used now and again. You'll need 1 per speaker. I just found these MA700's on ebay... I have no affiliation with the seller... but they're 200w instead of 125... If you're looking for good and cheap, I think this would work well.

I consider these great bang-for-buck amps in the used market because they have good power balanced with excellent musical abilities.

-C

04dgmsilv · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Jul 2006, 02:04 pm »

I'll second the av123.com recommendation, or pick up some of their products used. I started my 'higher' end journey about a year ago with the SP3/Ref 1 combo, still got the SP3 now paired up with some Zu Druids. Love the amp. The speakers can be a bit bright (I had bare floors/walls, just a couch), but I suspect in a properley treated (DIY even) room, they would be excellent to 50-60 Hz or so. The both of them can be had for ~$1k used and a bit more new.

Also got the SB3 (RWA modded), this IS the way to go, gotta love the access to any song at the click of a button, WITH excellent quality!

Fun time to be in this hobby for sure.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Jul 2006, 03:07 pm »

I have owned the Marantz MA500s in the past and would not recommend them unless you are going to hi pass the main speakers.
They were designed for HT and IMHO show this, as they lack bass compared to other amps I have used.
YMMV
Lin

beady · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 12:44 am »

Ouch, my head hurts from all the options once I really start digging.... you read a review on amp "X", and it's compared to amps "Y" and "Z", so you look for reviews on them and then have to look at amps A, B and C.......

It seems $500 may be a poor choice to make a price cutoff. For a couple hundred bucks more, it looks like I can get a lot better amplifier.

Two amp lines that really have me looking hard at them are McCormack and Belles. The reviews of them are glowing, and they seem to be "the next level" when compared to what I can buy for $500. In particular, the Belles 150a and 150a Hot Rod and the McCormack DNA.5 and DNA-125 are what I've been looking at. Of these 4 choices, which might be "best" for me?

The B&K 202 got good reviews also, but I didn't find all the glowing, "warm fuzzy" reviews on it, and going on and on about the soundstage depth, clarity, etc. The Onix stuff looks good for new, but I'm not sure it'll do what I want in the bass department. Same for the Odyssey amp; it's damping factor drops off as the frequency gets lower.

For my speakers, the ones I am going to build have Seas metal cone 6.5's and tweeters. From what I gather, they should be close to the Joseph Audio RM22si speakers http://www.josephaudio.com/specs.rm22simk2.html. I think the Josephs may use the Excel line of drivers though (just speculation on my part). Anyway, those speakers seem to get good reviews, so if I can build something that is 75% of what they are, I'll be happy. The better they sound, the happier I'll be

Nothing is carved in stone yet, I'm just letting you know what I've found doing my research. Thanks for any comments,

Mike

gbeard · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Jul 2006, 12:54 am »

The DNA is a great amp. You should be able to find a DNA .05 DLX for around $600-700, or even better a unit that has been upgraded to B or A status (for a bit more obviously). I sold mine several years ago and wish I still owned it...

Good luck!
gb

srlaudio · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Aug 2006, 09:36 pm »

Hi there,

We design and install everything from top of the line recording studios, large audio/video systems for church use, commercial installations such as the Corvette Plant tour audio system. Anyway, we are way picky about performance, and we have used, installed, and recommend the Wharfedale Professional MP1800. It is a precision, high speed, high current AB design, bridgeable amp with great build quality for right at your budget NEW. Check it out!

john1970 · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Aug 2006, 01:00 am »

I currently use an NAD C372 integrated amp and used it definitely fits into your price range. This afternoon I compared the NAD C372 (MSRP $900) to a Bryston 4B SST [actually 6B SST, but the 4B SST is the two channel equivalent] (MSRP $3295). While the Bryston was cleaner and more detailed with tighter and better controlled bass, the NAD was an exceptional performer in its price class.

Other used amps to consider would be Rotel RA-1060 (integrated), Bryston B60 (integrated), Nuforce IA-7 (integraed), and too many others to list. Each of the above amps go for less than $1000 used.

If you are looking for a pure power amp used brands to consider would be Bryston, NAD, Rotel, Parasound, Adcom.

Good luck,

John

Rocket · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Aug 2006, 01:53 am »

Hi,

Why don't you check out audiogon and when you've decided on the amp you want to purchase ask for our advice.

I think what you need to do is raise your budget a little and listen to as many amplifiers as you can. I've had a number of amplifiers in my system in the past 5 years and they all sounded a little different.

The Nad/Rotel gear is okay but if you want true audiophile sound you need to pay a little extra.

Regards

Rod

EProvenzano · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Aug 2006, 01:53 am »

Quote from: srlaudio on 12 Aug 2006, 09:36 pm

Hi there,

We design and install everything from top of the line recording studios, large audio/video systems for church use, commercial installations such as the Corvette Plant tour audio system. Anyway, we are way picky about performance, and we have used, installed, and recommend the Wharfedale Professional MP1800. It is a precision, high speed, high current AB design, bridgeable amp with great build quality for right at your budget NEW. Check it out!

Keep in mind that these pro amps typically have a fan. This may or may not be acceptable in a quiet home environment where the fan noise will likely be noticeable at the listening position.

Good luck,
EP

JLM · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Aug 2006, 10:52 am »

If you need to impress with your first purchase, you'll have to do the speakers first. A great amp can only make those KLHs sound incredibly decent at best. Speakers make the biggest difference to the sound of a system.

This would take away from your DIY skills, but active speakers (amps built into the speaker cabinets) would kill both birds with one stone. Mackie for instance builds good active speakers. The advantages of going active are:

1. Vendor picks the best amps for each driver to provide the best possible synergy.
2. Going one amp per driver gives the amps "direct view" of the simplier load from a single driver.
3. Bass output from these typically small speakers is incredible.
4. Frequency response is ruler flat.
5. Overall saves money.
6. Already includes the necessary active crossover.

The disadvantages of going active are:

1. Takes away the hunting hobby aspects of being an audiophile as two/three components are combined.
2. Harder to replace as you'll need multiple components if you go passive.
3. Harder to sell as they're not as popular.
4. Requires A/C to plug the amps in.

Look into ecoustics.com for reviews of the monitor sized standmounted 2-way Paradigm Studio 20 and Active 20 from about 7 years ago. This is a nearly a head to head comparison of active and passive versions of the same speaker. I heard the Active 20s back then and they blew away the entire Studio series, including fairly large floorstanding $2000/pair Studio 100s.

With active speakers you'd need only a Squeeze Box and interconnects to complete your system (ripped CD and internet radio sources).