[John Casler]

As far as height information being present in the recording is concerned
Chesky records produced a test CD that was used to demonstrate image height
reproduction and evaluate how well speakers performed in this area.
Scotty

This is the Chesky release. Its a good recording....

Scotty,

Is this the CD you mentioned?



Looking through the tracks, none mention image height.  Do you recall which track displays this property?

[95bcwh]

You want to know what imaging means? Build a chair using the same principle like below:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=748&pos=0


John Casler, you're the man. .. I just tried this today, and the imaging has improved way more anything else that I've done previously. Now I cannot imagine listening to music without sitting in something like this.

I've almost done with my experiment with placement of acoustic panels/basss traps. I have 18 x 4 inch panels plus 12 rolls of R13 fiberglass. Next, I will go and buy more curtains, more pleasing looking fabric to wrap up the panels and fiberglass.. I'm getting a new leather sofa....in a few months time I shall have a much more pleasant looking room!

[lonewolfny42]

As far as height information being present in the recording is concerned
Chesky records produced a test CD that was used to demonstrate image height
reproduction and evaluate how well speakers performed in this area.
Scotty

This is the Chesky release. Its a good recording....

Scotty,

Is this the CD you mentioned?



Looking through the tracks, none mention image height.  Do you recall which track displays this property?

John....Track 11 ...(LEDR)

Another...link......

[John Casler]

You want to know what imaging means? Build a chair using the same principle like below:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=748&pos=0


John Casler, you're the man. .. I just tried this today, and the imaging has improved way more anything else that I've done previously. Now I cannot imagine listening to music without sitting in something like this.

I've almost done with my experiment with placement of acoustic panels/basss traps. I have 18 x 4 inch panels plus 12 rolls of R13 fiberglass. Next, I will go and buy more curtains, more pleasing looking fabric to wrap up the panels and fiberglass.. I'm getting a new leather sofa....in a few months time I shall have a much more pleasant looking room!

Hey Barry,

Nooooooooo! You're the man

But you have to get a wool blanket and wrap those packages.  While your sitting there just tap that plastic, and you will hear the frequencies that are reflected by it.

That is a very inventive experiment.  With a little creativity you could construct something to do the same thing that "would" look OK too, but the idea is to hear if first.

Once you have "really" heard what it can do, it is difficult to listen seriously (2 channel) any other way.

But "run" (don't walk) to your linen closet and get two wool blankets, or flannel sheets, and wrap them around those plastic packages.

No one really knows what their gear is doing until they have heard it with most of the room taken out.

That space is also good for the best naps ever

[John Casler]

Thanks Chris,

I might just have to get this CD.

I am not familiar with the psychoacoustics and physics involved in providing height perception other than directionality.

Generally the shape of the pinna collects and processes the sound in such a way as to determine direction including height.

This obviously circumvents that collection and processing and "pre-processes" the sound to give that impression.

The interesting thing is that it is easy to see how "lateral" amplitude and phasing can cause left to right placement of images, but since this same signal processing is not available to the top and bottom of a speaker, this must be something different.

Must be some very sophisticate algorithm that is phase/frequency dependant that when heard with the other speaker can create such a directional perception.

[lonewolfny42]

Your welcome John...it is a good track.

As for an audiophile chair...always thought this was interesting....

[jon_010101]

My speaker system has WMTMW design which seems to work as well or better than the top down approach.  The think execution of the design may play a bigger part in what you hear rather than the baffle layout itself.
Height information can be captured successfully, and given high fidelity reproduction of the original information can be experienced in your listening
room. If this aspect of the listening experience is missing or lackluster in performance something is amiss in the reproduction chain.
 Scotty

Hi Scotty, It isn't so much that I don't experience vertical imaging ... I do and in a wide range of systems.  I'm sure quite a few of us experience some degree of vertical imaging with mono tracks.  I just tend to think that this effect is recreated in my head based on expectations of how instruments and performances are supposed to sound.  A thought experiment: a piano suspended upside down from a ceiling is recorded by an M+S or X+Y stereo microphone configuration centered vertically in a large room.  I'd wager $10 that, played back on a proper hifi, it would sound like it was right-side up to an unknowing listener if the left-right channels were reversed.  Well, assuming the piano mechanism even works upside down .

A few months ago, I recorded two acoustic guitars using XY stereo, and then recorded a second vocal track, having them sing close-mic'd to the same XY pair.  I've done this a few times with different configurations, and the result is always that I (and everyone else) sense the vocals being a few feet above the guitars.  Considering my absolute inattention to detail, I can only attribute this effect to listener expectations of how the performance should sound. 

I did take the time to listen again with ears on-axis with the tweeter... ignoring the music, I find that my soundstage does have vertical extension but it is symmetrical above and below the plane of the tweeters (like looking at an island in still water).  Focusing on the musical performance, I clearly perceive vertical placement, however.  Still, above the tweeter, the soundstage projects upwards... If I listen below the plane of the tweeters, the soundstage appears upside-down to me.  In normal listening, as long as I am above or at the plane of the tweeters, my brain easily fills in the rest. 

I guess, in summary, my (possibly-weak) hypothesis is that, barring speaker array or room asymmetry, vertical imaging should be entirely a psycho-acoustic effect, which is probably learned over a lifetime of experience with real sounds.  I doubt that an artificial sound (i.e., synthesized, rather than a common musical instrument) could be engineered to be moved unambiguously upwards or downwards in the soundstage simply by messing with phase, and without at least showing the listener a picture of a vertically moving object.  I'd love to be proven wrong.   

[ctviggen]

I have a CD where they place a mic in one location then have people walk around.  While I've never listened to the CD, you're supposed to hear someone walk in from the back, down the hallway (presumably past you) and off to one side.  They have additional tracks like this, too.  I know for my RM40s with realtraps placed between the speakers (and 9 other traps on/near the walls), I've been able to discern placement of Johnny Cash and two singers, one "entering" from the right, and the other between the first woman and Johnny, but to the back.  Whether it was recorded like this, whether the mixer (Rick Rubin) wanted it to sound this way, or whether I'm completely making it up, I don't know.

[Scotty]

 lonewolfny42, the Chesky CD was a demonstration/test CD for two channel application which has since been discontinued and been replaced by a multichannel test/demonstration CD.
I think there is still a need for this type test CD. At the time it was produced
it was the only one of it's kind and this is still the case as nothing has emerged
to replace it to my knowledge.
Scotty

[lonewolfny42]

lonewolfny42, the Chesky CD was a demonstration/test CD for two channel application which has since been discontinued and been replaced by a multichannel test/demonstration CD.
I think there is still a need for this type test CD. At the time it was produced
it was the only one of it's kind and this is still the case as nothing has emerged
to replace it to my knowledge.
Scotty

Hmm...thanks for the info Scotty...I have the old cd....bought a long time ago...didn't know they changed it around....thanks.

Chris

[nathanm]

Here they did one better than jon_010101's suggestion, they lit the piano on fire and dropped it from a helicopter.  I've heard that it was hell to record, but the result was worth it.  The cover just shows the dry run, the actual recording had the piano player strapped to a bench bolted to the piano itself.  As it tumbled through the air it gave a pleasing Leslie effect.  You can also really hear plenty of top end "air" and a very "warm" midrange.  The screams of the piano player as he reached terminal velocity are very palpable.  Unfortunately what they hadn't planned on was the landing.  Consequently this was the last recording made in this manner.

[John Casler]

Here they did one better than jon_010101's suggestion, they lit the piano on fire and dropped it from a helicopter.  I've heard that it was hell to record, but the result was worth it.  The cover just shows the dry run, the actual recording had the piano player strapped to a bench bolted to the piano itself.  As it tumbled through the air it gave a pleasing Leslie effect.  You can also really hear plenty of top end "air" and a very "warm" midrange.  The screams of the piano player as he reached terminal velocity are very palpable.  Unfortunately what they hadn't planned on was the landing.  Consequently this was the last recording made in this manner.

Nathanm,

Thanks for that post.

I really enjoyed the "imaging" it created.  Very clear and 3-D like.  I was able to get a nice sense of height, width and depth, but even more so was the "weight" which seemed to offer a type of accelleration to the sound that I hadn't been able to achieve before.

 

[Scotty]

lonewolfny42, thanks for the link to the CD with the LEDR test track,
I thought this test was unavailable. Every audiophile should have a copy
of this CD to separate the good from the bad as well as to assess the effectiveness of their speaker placement and any room treatment they may have
with an eye towards improving the imaging of their system.

John this powerful tool would let you optimize your setup for sure and help your customers setup their speakers for best imaging. It might also help when setting the pots so that both speakers do the same thing image wise.
Scotty

[lonewolfny42]

lonewolfny42, thanks for the link to the CD with the LEDR test track,
I thought this test was unavailable. Every audiophile should have a copy
of this CD to separate the good from the bad as well as to assess the effectiveness of their speaker placement and any room treatment they may have
with an eye towards improving the imaging of their system.

John this powerful tool would let you optimize your setup for sure and help your customers setup their speakers for best imaging. It might also help when setting the pots so that both speakers do the same thing image wise.
Scotty

Now you got me confused Scotty....

So.....it's still available then ?

[Scotty]

 lonewolfny42, the link you provided is to a CD that appears to be in stock.
I understood that the CD that had the LEDR track was out of print and had been replaced by a muti-channel setup SACD or DVD-A,DVD.
It looks like I was wrong about the availability.
Scotty

[Double Ugly]

I hope it's 2-ch, because I just ordered the Chesky disc.

Thanks for the info and link, Chris.  If it's 2-ch, I'll be sure to let you know if I'm able to improve things in my near-impossible room.

[lonewolfny42]

lonewolfny42, the link you provided is to a CD that appears to be in stock.
I understood that the CD that had the LEDR track was out of print and had been replaced by a muti-channel setup SACD or DVD-A,DVD.
It looks like I was wrong about the availability.
Scotty

OK....gotcha ...it is a very good recording....good music....good test's...glad it's still around. Thanks !!

Chris

[lonewolfny42]

I hope it's 2-ch, because I just ordered the Chesky disc.

Thanks for the info and link, Chris.  If it's 2-ch, I'll be sure to let you know if I'm able to improve things in my near-impossible room.

Yes....it's 2 channel/stereo.

A near-impossible room....got a Century 21 real estate nearby ?

[jon_010101]

Here they did one better than jon_010101's suggestion, they lit the piano on fire and dropped it from a helicopter.  I've heard that it was hell to record, but the result was worth it.  The cover just shows the dry run, the actual recording had the piano player strapped to a bench bolted to the piano itself.  As it tumbled through the air it gave a pleasing Leslie effect.  You can also really hear plenty of top end "air" and a very "warm" midrange.  The screams of the piano player as he reached terminal velocity are very palpable.  Unfortunately what they hadn't planned on was the landing.  Consequently this was the last recording made in this manner.

   Classic!  Thanks Nathan!

[Double Ugly]

A near-impossible room....got a Century 21 real estate nearby ?

I *bought* this house through a Century 21 agent! 

Kandy and I have already decided that if we end up being stuck in this God-forsaken place, we're going to add another wing to the house.  It will be *MY* room, and will be built such that I can achieve a much greater percentage of what the SP Tech's have to offer.

God-willing (please, dear God, no!) that won't be necessary.