New Digital source needed

Radiator · « **on:** 28 Jun 2006, 02:54 pm »

Hi-

I recently purchased a deHavilland Mercury 2 tube preamp and paired it with my Odyssey Monoblock extreme amplifiers, driving a pair of VMPS RM2 speakers. Compared to this stuff, my DVD and CD sources are pretty terrible I believe. I have a 5 disk Yamaha Changer, and an older Panasonic DVD player. In considering new sources, I have been intrigued by the modded Denon 2900 players I see on Audiogon. Specifically, there is the Modwright version, with the "Ultimate Truth" mods. Then there is the Exemplar, which is more costly, but seems to approach the mods the same way. Does anyone here have an opinion regarding these two? Interestingly, they were both reviewed by 6moons, but by different reviewers. The reviewer that did the Exemplar makes a comment that the Exemplar is the best mod kit, and hints that he was not impressed by the Modwright (doesn't mention it by name, but you can kinda tell). And how about other options? I don't want to spend a fortune, but I do want to know what you guys think....

Thanks!

Radiator

Carlman · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 04:43 pm »

Would you consider using a computer as a source?

If so...
You could purchase a basic HP 'media series' PC at Best buy with a 300G hard drive, monitor, keyboard, etc. for under a grand... and just rip and store music to it... (300G will hold a little over 800 cd's in .flac format) The PC could be anywhere in your house and you could use a Squeezebox as a simple and easy-to-use player in your sound room. The SB would play all the songs from your PC. They have wired and wireless versions so you can use a wireless network to do all of this.

That's the easiest combo I know to setup and use for a PC-based digital source. There would be some learning curve involved if you wanted to do it yourself and are unfamiliar with any or all of the vocabulary I just used.

There are very good DVD/CD sources out there but to me, none really hands-down beat the PC as a source in sound quality. Especially when you can access all of your cd's electronically... and that the whole solution will cost about 1,k... and sound as good as 5,k+ players.

Best of luck....

Nick B · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 04:52 pm »

IMHO, PC based audio is the way to go. The Squeezebox, although not the best ergonomically designed piece, works and performs very well. The modded units are especially great performers for the money. I'll never go back to using a CDP again. Good luck. Seems either Denon would perform well if that's the way you decide to go.

lcrim · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 07:17 pm »

I can't think of any politically correct way to express this. PC based playback of audio provides so much better quality and greater convenience at similar price points that I haven't considered or even read reviews of players.
Many are waiting to see how HiDef playback of movies shakes out. Any present universal player will soon be obsolete in this area as well.
The learning curve mentioned in PC based playback can be approached. The internet gives you access to tons of help.

kfr01 · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 07:47 pm »

I 100% agree with the PC audio suggestions. I cannot go back. I prefer a PC + high quality external soundcard + DAC to a Squeezebox, but the benefits are the same.

Radiator · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 08:56 pm »

Thanks for the replies everybody. I am unfamiliar with the squeezebox, so I'll take some time when I can to research that. I can currently run my computer sound output to my preamp, I made this happen a few years ago. I have a Soundblaster Live CCA I believe. I purchased the digital output daughterboard for it, and ran 50 feet or so of Toslink cable to a DAT deck (Sony PCM R300) for its DAC. This output, of course, runs to the preamp. I used the Toslink because it was such a long run, and I felt it would be more noise immune, since it runs along a wall and is assumed to be running parallel to the wall wiring. I was considering getting into taping live shows at the time, but never moved forward on that front. Regardless, I believe I read somewhere that Toslink is crap, and that bends in the cable can cause phase shifting or some such thing. Does anyone have an opinion regarding my current setup?

Thanks again.....

kfr01 · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 09:26 pm »

Read some about the squeezebox at http://www.redwineaudio.com/

It works wirelessly -or- over ethernet, so your long toslink run would not be needed. Modded, the Squeezeboxes are said to compete with most standalone DAC's on the market.

If you don't think you'd like the interface, see also the Olive products on Red Wine's site. Or, simply try using a new / different DAC. If you do this, you may want to think about a different soundcard. Creative soundcards have been known to resample in hardware and may not pass a bit-perfect stream. Try a USB-->SPDIF converter to get the soundcard and spdif stage out of the noisy environment of the computer.

The SB really is ideal, if you can give up the PC interface. I can't, but I'm strange like that.

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 10:21 pm »

Due to problems with our wireless network I got fed up and bought a crossover ethernet cable for the Squeeze Box.

Still very early, but noticably better sound than wireless.

lcrim · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Jun 2006, 11:32 pm »

Jeff:
The quality of sound couldn't possibly vary, its ethernet, wireless or wired. The same error checking, the same buffering @ the device either way.

JLM · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 09:35 am »

Radiator,

My Red Wine Audio modded Squeeze Box is a winner. I have very clean power here, so I can't hear a difference between battery and A/C, but the Red Wine mods include improved AC as well. For $900 plus hard drive(s) I don't think you can't beat the sound. Plus you gain convenience and internet streaming. It has saved me from buying a pre-amp as it serves as all my sources. And you can start out with the stock unit for $300 and move it to a second room or have it modded later on.

Larry,

I certainly didn't expect any difference between wired and wireless, but then got thinking about why there are differences between various digital cables used between CDPs and DACs. BTW the signal strength before from the wireless network was marginal. Another factor could be was that before the signal was running from my PC (with booster antenna) through the upstairs PC (network hub) and back down to the Squeeze Box. OTOH it was several days between listening both ways. Just wonder now if someone can has tried both ways. Not having network issues is reason enough to stay with the cable.

lcrim · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 10:09 am »

Jeff:
IP over ethernet is a different animal than you are used to. It is a data transmission protocol and you are either connected or not connected, you can't have "better" or "worse" connections. The signal strength meter is a tool to help you w/ placement of the device. But once connectivity is established, it can't be improved, the Squeezebox receives all the packets sent to it by Slimserver, the protocol checks that it has received the correct number of packets and that the order is correct before it sends it up the stack. The alternative is drop outs not poorer quality sound.
Your feeling that being hard wired rather than using wi-fi sounds better means that you should do it that way. If music makes you happy, then do it the way that makes you happiest.

Radiator · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 06:52 pm »

Quote from: kfr01 on 28 Jun 2006, 07:47 pm

I 100% agree with the PC audio suggestions. I cannot go back. I prefer a PC + high quality external soundcard + DAC to a Squeezebox, but the benefits are the same.

What would you consider a high quality soundcard? Also, do you have any software that you prefer on the PC? Winamp? I assume you have a file system that helps you keep track of all your tunes....seems like it could be overwhelming....well, maybe for me anyway...

kfr01 · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 07:04 pm »

High quality soundcard (in my book) = anything that'll pass bit-perfect digital audio to a DAC, supports ASIO, and has reasonably low jitter.

Try the Red Wine Audio USB Select or the Empirical Audio Offramp.

If you'd like to save some money, try a stock M-Audio USB Transit; you can have it modified later.

If you're looking for an internal soundcard try Lynx or RME professional cards.

Software:

Ripping - Exact Audio Copy (free)
Encoding - FLAC (free)
Playback - Foobar or Winamp (with FLAC and ASIO plug-ins)

If you set EAC + FLAC up correctly, you can come up with a very organized file system.

I break my music down by genre, then by artist, then by album. I find it pretty easy to find what I'm looking for.

Radiator · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 07:11 pm »

Thanks again everybody. I do believe I may begin to move down the squeezebox road, but it'll take some time. My current home PC is still on Windows 98. I guess an upgrade is necessary, so I will likely begin looking into a new PC. I guess what I'd like to do if I am heading down this road is get a video card with NTSC outputs so I can plug it into my television. That way, I can also stream video when there is an internet concert simulcast, etc. Does anyone have any input on a good video card for this application?

Regardless, thanks a bunch for everyones input. These types of sites are only as good as the folks who contribute, and various places in Audio Circle have led me down the road of sonic nirvana. Well, that may be a stretch, but, well, you get my drift.....

Radiator · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 07:28 pm »

Quote from: kfr01 on 29 Jun 2006, 07:04 pm

High quality soundcard (in my book) = anything that'll pass bit-perfect digital audio to a DAC, supports ASIO, and has reasonably low jitter.

Try the Red Wine Audio USB Select or the Empirical Audio Offramp.

If you'd like to save some money, try a stock M-Audio USB Transit; you can have it modified later.

If you're looking for an internal soundcard try Lynx or RME professional cards.

Software:

Ripping - Exact Audio Copy (free)
Encoding - FLAC (free)
Playback - Foobar or Winamp (with FLAC and ASIO plug-ins)

If you set EAC + FLAC up correctly, you can come up with a very organized file system.

I break my music down by genre, then by artist, then by album. I find it pretty easy to find what I'm looking for.

Never really knew about soundcards that were external USB devices. Looks pretty cool.

I don't know about all this battery power for the red wine audio stuff. I am concerned with battery life, forgetting to plug in for recharge, etc. I understand the idea of removing noise generated by power supplies though.

As for the software, I have been using EAC and FLAC for a few years. I never played FLAC though, I thought that although FLAC is still lossless, it was compressed and wouldn't sound quite right unless expanded to WAV first. I guess that I am incorrect....

Thanks.

kfr01 · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 08:02 pm »

A decoded flac and the original wav are bit-for-bit the same.

You may play FLAC directly with no loss.

Radiator · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Jun 2006, 09:38 pm »

Quote from: kfr01 on 29 Jun 2006, 08:02 pm

A decoded flac and the original wav are bit-for-bit the same.

You may play FLAC directly with no loss.

JLM · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Jul 2006, 10:38 am »

Another hard drive based option is the Olive products. They provide all the function of the Squeeze Box plus hard drive and CDP, so they stand alone from your PC. As they use laptop hard drives the capacities are less, but no PC network, hardware, or software headaches to deal with.

After living with a Squeeze Box I'd go Olive instead because:
1. Avoid all those headaches;
2. Don't have to rip a CD to listen to it (after 6 months I still have hundreds of CDs I haven't bothered to rip, so I haven't heard these "B" recordings in all that time);
3. When modded by Red Wine Audio they're supposed to sound better than the modded Squeeze Box.

Radiator · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Jul 2006, 02:20 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 1 Jul 2006, 10:38 am

Another hard drive based option is the Olive products. They provide all the function of the Squeeze Box plus hard drive and CDP, so they stand alone from your PC. As they use laptop hard drives the capacities are less, but no PC network, hardware, or software headaches to deal with.

After living with a Squeeze Box I'd go Olive instead because:
1. Avoid all those headaches;
2. Don't have to rip a CD to listen to it (after 6 months I still have hundreds of CDs I haven't bothered to rip, so I haven't heard these "B" recordings in all that time);
3. When modded by Red Wine Audio they're supposed to sound better than the modded Squeeze Box.

Thanks for the input. I had considered the Olive, but didn't pull the trigger. I fully agree about the headaches with the Squeezebox, but I feel like the hardware for that option is multipurpose, and forces me into the 21st century with the wireless networking in the house. I have a lot of history trading live shows of bands that allow taping, so I am well versed in ripping and EAC setup, which can indeed be painful. Cost is less also. My (or A) DVD player won't be leaving my setup, so I can play anything that I have not yet ripped if I desire.

One further thing, I can't go with battery power. I use my stereo far too much, and don't like the idea of battery replacement. I figure as batteries age, the ability to take and hold a charge declines. At some point I am going to be irritated that I only get three hours play time, etc. Maybe I am worrying about this part of it too much....

I think the Olive stuff is an excellent idea though, and I wouldn't really be suprised if something similar (or an Olive itself) ends up in my system at some point......

Gordy · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Jul 2006, 02:58 pm »

A few quick points about batteries... As long as you avoid running them passed their recommended limit, they should last 2 years or more. 7 or 8ah batteries will only cost about $15 to replace. You can always get the outboard battery option which will double the run time (or take it out of the equation) and is reportedly seamless when switching between batteries.

Desulfators are available which should double a batteries useful lifespan, but a little diy may be involved as they need to be installed between the charger and the battery. They cost $50-70, though diy plans are available too. If you're using more than one battery system they are worth it imo, especially since they are designed for industrial / automotive use