[cyounkman]

Hi! Welcome to the Reference 3A Owners Circle.

To start things off:
What kind of systems is everyone using their R3A’s in? Feel free to respond in detail here, or set up your system on Audio Circle or link to one elsewhere.

What does your system do well? What would you change if you could? Arguments about low-power vs. high-power; tubes vs. SS encouraged. (Just keep it above the belt.)

Previous experiences are very valuable as well: What did you try, and hate? What just wasn’t your cup of tea? Please share your missteps so we can avoid them.

In the long term, this thread should serve as a resource for people with the dreaded question: how do I power my r3a’s?

Thanks for posting.

Regards,

[brucegel]

My system is  1)DeCapo i   2)vtl tiny triodes latest model 25watts per channel monoblocks stock configuration with jj tesla tubes throughout. 3) audio aero capitole cdp mk1 version 4)QED silver anniversary silver over copper speaker cable 5)harmonic technology pro silway xlr to rca's (adapter by cardas) from cdp to amps. 6)osiris stands for speakers filled with sand and blue tack under speakers. non biwire configuration with cardas copper straps which come as standard on decapo i's now.Sound of system was based on a couple of years of listening to live music particularly orchestral as I work for the seattle symphony and have easy access to rehearsals and performances.The system started out too bright but has now dialed in after 200 hrs.Patience with system synergy is crucial to understanding what happens.I discovered (imo) that 40hz is sufficient for almost anything recorded,I know that organ works contain lower frequencies but I could not control them in my livingroom/listening room setup anyway.The DeCapos do what so many other speakers cannot which is reproduce harmonic correctness throughout a wide bandwidth.Each instrument sounds as it actually does in the real world.I think tubed systems help but there are ss pieces that are quite good too like rowland or boulder.The only way to significantly beat the sound I have achieved is to get an amp like the art audio jota as monoblocks which are six times more expensive and doesnt make financial sense at all.Vocals are amazing on this system, highs are extended and smooth like real life and my next move is to get a turntable/phono stage for my vinyl because as good as cd's sound on my system they are relatively speaking horse shit compared to vinyl.Look forward to other systems appearing here.

[Terry]

My system consists of the: 1) DeCappo -i with heavy stands; 2) VPI TNT/Graham(various cartridges); 3) Audible Illusions M3A with Gold phono board; 4) TriMax mono-block amps; 5) Magnan Signature IC and Signature speaker wire, biwired; 6) an old (10yrs.) Arcam Alpha CDP; 7) REL Strata Subwoofer.
The DeCappos are only the second monitor speaker I have owned in my 30+ yrs. as an audiophile, the other being the Rogers LS3/5a. The DeCappos replaced a pair of the Gallos Nucleus Reference speakers which are a hard act to follow. Nevertheless, with the exception of deep bass (below 40 Hz.) and the near omni dispersion pattern of the Gallos, I significantly prefer the DeCappos to Gallos. Indeed, the only speaker that I have owned over the years that give the DeCappos serious challenge for those elements that I consider important in sound reproduction (transparency, accuracy of timber, dynamic contrasts) are the Quad 57s, which I used for about 5 yrs. The old Quads are still supreme in the reproduction of the midrange, particularly the human voice, but the DeCappos are close, considerably more dynamic and they are more friendly to social (group) listening sessions (i.e. the Quads are definitely a one person speaker).
The DeCappos, either version, will expose flaws in an old CD player (like mine) or substandard electronics very quickly. I understand that this was one of the main goals of Divergent Tech. when they released the "i" version of this speaker: to tone down the tweeter a little to make the speaker more compatible with ss electronics. Nevertheless, with the exception of a mild rise in output between 600 and 800 Hz., a range which I believe is handled by the woofer, the DeCappos have a better (flatter) in room frequency response than any speaker I have owned (as measured with the Radio Shack SPL meter).
I have only heard the DeCappo-i in one system, my own, but I have a number of friends that own the original DeCappo and I have listened quite extensively to these speakers using several different source components and amplifiers. To hear the DeCappos driven with a good 300B tube amp (Manley Neo Classics) or an 845 tube (ASL "Leyla") is a real experience. Although my TriMax (based on the 807 tube) do a reasonable job, and at 25 wpc have enough power, it is definitely my intention to improve this area of my system in the next year or two. All I need is the money.  
That's about it! These are great speakers that I plan to hold onto for quite some time.

[WileyCoyote]

My system currently consists of the de Capos, a VAC Avatar and an AVI CD player.  I formerly owned (and now miss) a Michell Gyro SE, w/ an SME 309 arm and VDH & Clearaudio cartridges.  I also have VDH cabling/interconnects throughout the system and a Monster Cable line conditioner.  When I had the Michell, my system produced some of the most natural, realistic reproduced music I have heard.  Acoustic and "live" music (ie, jazz, blues & classical) came as close to sounding like a live performance as I have experienced, with the exception of perhaps a little LF info (and of course, no home system can truly reproduce the dynamics & fullness of a full symphony, nor would I want to in my home).  My reasons for selling my analog setup would take to long to explain here.  When I sold the Gyro, I bought an AVI CD4 Reference CD player (retail $2100 US) from the local dealer that sold me the Ref 3As and VAC.  The AVI sounds great with certain well recorded CDs, but not so great w/ some older recordings, particularly some of the older rock/pop music I still listen to, and to some extent even with jazz/blues/classical.  I find this very frustrating, as I hate listening only to a few "audiophile" recordings.  With some recordings, the sound is simply artificial sounding, and I feel I am missing some low level detail that is present in live sound.  However, I have been playing with tube rolling in my VAC w/ mixed success, and also have upgraded some but not all of the cabling.  My system still sounds very good, but it is missing some of the transparency/realism I was hearing before.  Also, don't have ideal stands for the de Capos.  Not sure if I should blame current shortcomings on the tube rolling, the cables or the source, but I know the de Capos/VAC are capable of sounding better.  I auditioned the AVI player extensively against the Rega Jupiter, Roskan, Sonneteer players and others my dealer carried (he's really into British gear), and felt it was clearly the best of the bunch.  Now wish I had auditioned the Audio Aero prima, the Cary, the tube player imported by Music Hall and a few others in its price range before buying.  As far as tubes, the NOS tubes (mainly Mullards) have given the VAC a richer and more lively sound, but perhaps at the loss of some naturalness and low level resolution.  I'm about to pick up a used Nottingham turntable (I hope), so I'll see what that does.  I'm also going to go back to the stock tubes and try some of my old Nord. and XLO cables to see if that helps. I'd be interested in any suggestions anyone has.

[brucegel]

lovely systems terry and coyote.Would like to hear some 300b's with decapos sometime.Heard the jota amp with audio physics virgo but not with decapos.Don't think I could handle the experience without becoming poorer.

[WileyCoyote]

Interesting.  The person who owned my VAC (for a couple months) traded it back in on a Jota, but I never had the pleasure of hearing it.  I liked the sound of the 3As even w/ ASL's entry-level single-ended integrated when I heard the combo at the shop.  I would love to hear the 3As w/ a high-end SET or 300b amp, like the Jota, or VAC's 300B amps.

[Paul L]

My experience only limited to the original De Capos.  The De Capos is simple and direct design with careful execution.   It is amongst one of the most transparent dynamic speakers you can get.   It is approaching the electrostatics performance.  Most of the time I used the FT Audio LW-1 and 47Lab Gaincard to demo the De Capos.  The source is TEAC VRDS10 as transport and Perpetual P1A/P3a.  I have been considering changing the source to a simpler and more direct design like the 47Lab.  Digital cable is Kibmer D60 between transport and P1a.  Stock I2S between P1a and p3a.  I have just ordered the Orchid and will replace the I2S ana try.  I/C is the Kimber Select KS1030 or KS1021.  The speaker cable is the Kimber solid core silver that used in the Select I/C.
I have tried many other amps including my favourite budget amp Monarchy or tube amps from ASL and CR Development, it seems that the Gaincard gives me the most direct and disappearing system.  The ASL 1006-DT also gives very transparent sound.  I am kind of lean on direct and simple design philosophy (but more difficult to execute) and think only OTL can give the rival of the Gaincard  when the LW-1 and De Capos are used.   With the easy load of the De Capos, OTL should be a good match.

[Irish]

Well, at the risk of being repetitive, I'll re-post here.

All of your systems sound very good. I'd like to hear them all!!!

I have the De Capo "i" and the rest of my system consists of:

Audio Note P2SE amp
Audio Note M2Phono
VPI HW 19 Jr. Turntable
Audioquest PT6 tonearm
Dynavector DV-10x4 cartridge
Audio Note, Pure Silver Sound, Acoustic Research, and Distech interconnects.
Speaker stands are Atlantis Reference 24" sand filled.

I am mostly vinyl but just purchased an Audio Note CD 3.1x player which was DOA, so I am awaiting a replacement.

All types of music except for the dreaded Country and Western. I like your musical selections, Brucegel...!

I do notice a slight veiling on phono especially on acoustic guitars. Any thoughts? I'll see if I experience this on CD when the player arrives. I may do some phono tube rolling if anyone has suggestions. Stock tubes I believe are ECC83 and 6DJ8. Don't know the manufacturer.

[Irish]

Oh, and my speaker cable is Kimber 4VH which should probably be the next thing that needs upgrading...

[cyounkman]

Irish – I would recommend upgrading the cable. I was originally using shotgunned Kimber 8TC w my DC’s, and the improvement in moving to Van den Hul D-352 (even a single run) was enormous. The bass sounded strangled with the Kimbers, by comparison, and I generally find lower-end Kimber thin-sounding in the midrange. Adding a second run of the VdH yielded further improvements in the treble, of a lesser magnitude. If budget is a factor, try buying an extra few inches of cables terminated with bananas to replace the metal foil jumpers that come with the De Capos. (Oh. Maybe the jumpers on the ‘i’ are less of a problem. I know Scott Markwell at TAS indicated that the metal jumpers on the original DC should be replaced with good cable.)
I’d be interested to hear how your Audio Note player sounds. Have you had any other problems with reliability of AN equipment?

Wiley – If you’re looking for a digital upgrade, consider the GamuT CD-1. I’m a very happy owner, and it performs the near-impossible feat of balancing musicality and natural presentation with very high resolution. I’ve heard the Rega and Roksan players you mentioned, and they are not in the same category IMO. I don’t know anything about the AVI.

Terry – sounds like your systems is pretty heavily analog-oriented. I agree with that weighting of priorities (towards the source). I wish I had gone about it that way—bad digital with ss and De Capos is a sound I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
Interesting point you make about the goals for the ‘i’ upgrade. See my comments in the thread on the upgrade:
 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2900
Where did you hear that that was what they had in mind? (I guess we could ask Tash.)

Also interesting that you measured the frequency response… R3A isn’t the manufacturer that comes to mind when talking about ruler-flat response fans, but it’s good to know… If it sounds right, the response must be right … right?

I am also a huge fan of the Quads (old and new); a friend of mine who has Apogee Centaur Majors and was considering upgrading/downsizing to De Capos is currently infatuated with the Braun LE1’s that are being re-manufactured by Quad Classic. They really define speaker transparency, and have remarkable tonal accuracy; but fall down in dynamics and multi-person listening compared to DC’s (and lots of other speakers). Very compelling, though … spooky. We heard the LE1’s driven by Audio Aero Capitole monoblocks and the Capitole Mk II cdp at the Montreal show.

Brucegel – I am on the record, in other forums, as loving your system (not having heard it). I am very discouraged that the ss pieces you mentioned as ‘quite good’ are from Rowland and Boulder. (These are not in my price category.)
Anyone heard GamuT amps on the de capos? I know they are fabulous ss amps, but haven’t heard at home.

[Terry]

Chris - The dealer I purchased the DeCappos from, Distinctive Audio in Ottawa, expressed this view about the tweeter replacement. Personally, although I am prepared to believe that this is at least partially correct, I also believe that some of this change was to cut cost and increase profit. As witness, you can now buy the DeCappo-i in a piano finish, just like the original DeCappo, but for considerably more money. Surprise! If my DeCappo-"i"s were not solidly blu-tacked to the Atlantis stands, I would haul them over to a friends and compare them to the old DeCappos. Anyway, like you dealer friend suggested, I don't think there is much of a difference between the old and new model: they are both excellent.
On the subject of maximizes the source, I have always strongly believed in this However, I must say that I am not going to be able to live with this Arcam CDP for very long. The DeCappos really reveal its shortcomings. Once again, I need more money  

[Doktorfuture]

I recently (like Friday) decided to buy a pair of 3a La Suprema's (not the II, the original), with corian sides from my dealer. Amazingly, they have not sold in a few years there, which boggles my mind as they are freakishly amazing. I've listened to lots of systems recently, from Dynaudio statements, the B&W stuff, the Living Voice Avatar OBX's, etc... and this speaker really shined. It's 'top end' is smooth, and not as analytical as my horns (see below) which will infact be a plesant change.

I live in Kitchener Ontario Canada, which is kind of interesting since about 5 minutes from where I live is Divergent Technologies on Frederick Street, and the chap who bought the rights to manufacture/distribute the 3A speaker line.  The speakers used to be made in Switzerland I understand, but are now at least assembled in Canada.

So anyhew, I have four systems: The high-efficiency tube/horn system, the solid state 'grip the bass' system, the high-quality headphone system, and the 'home theatre' system. Next year I think that there will be an electrostatic system too.

What I'm listening too this morning consists of Klipsch La Scala speakers, with 104db efficiency, cardas hexlink bi-wire, antique sound lab AQ 1006 845 (wow, a good amp), a Musical Fidelity A3.24 upsampling DAC which is driven off of wave files from a computer downstairs in my music studio. I rip all my CD's and control the system from an amazingly silent iMac.  The interconnects vary from custom silver/teflon combo's or the trusty Cardas Neutral reference. I've tried all sorts of volume attenuators, but I find I prefer a digital volume control.  I have two Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers, which blend very well and extend the bass of the La Scala's. Everything is damped with DH Cones, granite shelving (from www.verastarr.com), custom machined cones, etc...  Power filtering is a Chang Lightspeed, and power cables are VandenHul Mainstream Hybrid.  I had three power lines drawn from the panel, each to its own breaker, and star earthed.

My solid state system is what I've started building (and to which the La Suprema's are going to be added this weekend), also includes the Musical Fidelity TriVista Integrated amp.  I got this amp about a month ago, and it's 340 wpc, and still needs a lot of breaking in but it shows a lot of potential when  I auditioned a pair with various 3a products.  The cables are Cardas Golden Reference, and we'll see what interconnects will do. The source will still be the music studio downstiars (I can apply all the room corrections in the digital domain with extremely high quality (http://www.mackie.com/products/uad1/index.html). I will be using my PS-Audio muti-wave power-regenerator, which is really something (can't wait for the multiwave II upgrade).

I am really looking forward to the La Suprema's. I think, but am not sure, that the la suprema's have been discontinued (even the La Suprema II). Anyone know if this is the case? Anyway, this is an original that blew my socks off. Each speaker weighs about 200 pounds, and is full-range down to about 24 hz. There is still a page about them on the 3a's site (http://www.reference3a.com/supremaREVIEW.htm) and in trolling through the internet I found people suggesting these were among the top 5 or 6 best speakers of all time. The 'full range' quality adds to the normal monitor. You get all the 'de cappo' quality, but full range. Really amazed me. It compared extremely favorably to the JBL K2's I listened to, and they cost  about 40k CDN.

Here's an old page on the 3a site about them: (http://www.reference3a.com/suprema.htm)  I'm looking forward to when they arrive!

[romyus]

.
hello folks i have a reference 3a Master Control at the back it said master control by innovac 100 watts at 6 ohms and the color is glossy white i don't know whether this is a knock off royal master or what, i drive this speaker using classe cap 151 with classe cd player cdp.3 with transparent super balance ic for the power cord i am using harmonic tech pro ac 11, it sound fah-bou- lous.  it sounds far better than my nautilus 805. i like the sound, it sounds warm, detail, and so neutral, you won't have a fatigue or tired of listening to this speaker. i was setting up this speaker using krell hts 1 and a kav 250 a and the sound was too much i think too much of a punch and too much of a mid and treble, i think for a HT krell is a good system to have but not for 2 ch stereo. i hope i am not suck, anyone have master control here? would like to change info
thanks
RP

[Irish]

Chris,

The manufacturer recommended the new Van den Hul Inspiration cable as well as Harmonic Technology and Acoustic Zen cables. The De Capos are internally wired with Van den Hul, no? They were also very high on the new Chang Lightspeed cable which they used at CES. They described it as "stunning." Very inexpensive too. These recommendations are based on my electronics so your mileage may vary.

I had to send my AN preamp in once for repair otherwise no problems. I see Peter Qvortrup/Audio Note can take some hits sometimes on some forums, but when I've emailed him he couldn't have been more responsive and is very cordial.

[cyounkman]

Terry: It's funny that the skeptics (about the 'i' model) we've spoken to are the dealers who stand to sell new speakers (in prettier colours) and make some money on tweeter upgrades. Hopefully we'll get someone in the forum who can shed some light on the extent to which the new model is 'voiced' differently or whatever.


Dr. F: Hello and welcome. Where on earth did you find old Suprema's? I have much desired them, although I can't really afford them. I read Valin's review; very interesting. He is really one of the great reviewers out there IMO. The Tri-Vista integrated should be an interesting match. Probably overkill on power (if there is such a thing), but I've heard that it is voiced on the warmer side compared to the Tri-Vista separates or the 308 series, which I never fell in love with (although Robert Harley liked them enough for a Golden Ear). Anyway, I'm a big fan of the idea of an integrated taken to the logical extreme. What is your digital source, exactly? I'm guessing that the system you are assembling will be extraordinarily sensitive to upstream tweaks and improvements. (I have been playing with black CDRs and vibration control on the digital front.) Keep us posted!


romyus: Hello. I wish I could offer specific advice as to confirming the provenance of your speakers. If they sound much better than an n805, they must be decent, anyway. I would expect that of the Master Controls. I would recommend contacting the manufacturer at http://www.reference3a.com/ or  tel: 519-749-1565. They can probably help you if you give them a serial number.

I actually heard my de capos before buying with the Krell KAV-300i integrated and the matching cdp. As I recall, the experience was a little like having a Wall Street analyst shout the week's market activity into your ear: lots of information, but not all that much fun.


Irish: Divergent Technologies, the distributor for Reference 3A, also distributes Van den Hul and Chang Lightspeed, so those two are their standard recommendations. The buzz had started about the Chang speaker cable at the Montreal show as well, but I wasn't 'stunned' by the sound there at all (Copland CDA-822, new Copland hybrid integrated, De Capo i's). I was actually a bit disappointed with the sound there, as it was my first time hearing De Capos at a show. (Of course, this was after hearing EMM Labs-Tenor-Kharma, an Audio Note DAC 5 with SAP monsters, and lots of other silly-expensive gear...)

Harmonic Technology seems to get a lot of good press. I have had very positive experience with (i.e., I tried but couldn't afford) interconnects from Acoustic Zen (there was a real synergy with my GamuT). I have read in several reviews that the internal wiring of the original de capos was by Van den Hul. I do not know about the 'i' model. I use Van den Hul D-352 (bi-wired) at home currently with fine (for now) results.

[WileyCoyote]

For what its worth, I spoke today w/ Divertech about the tweeter upgrade.  He claims that the new tweeter has a smoother but slightly more extended sound.  However, it turns out that my de Capos are not upgradeable to the new tweeter.  Apparently, at some point Ref 3A/Divertech changed the mounting of the tweeter on the de Capo.  Only those w/ the newer mounting style can be upgraded to the new tweeter.  The way to tell is whether the tweeter is mounted w/ 4 screws (upgradeable) or 3 screws (not).  However, the upgrade also involves a change to the capacitors/wiring on the tweeters; he said that this upgrade could be done to my speakers, and in my case (with my gear) might be worth-while.  He claims that it would eliminate the slight bit of HF glare I have been noticing. He was very friendly and helpful.  He also mentioned, of course, that changing the cables/stands might help.  In hindsight, I think this HF glare was what has been bothering me, something I noticed listening this weekend before speaking w/ Tash.  It was accented w/ the NOS Mullards I have been running in my amp, but just not willing to give up all the other great things this tube does.

[brucegel]

For what it's worth a dealer here in Seattle has described the older model as smooth like the living voice speakers on top and my "i" version after listening about 7months is more extended than the living voice speaker,that is; a greater liveliness sans bite or brittle or shiny-ness.I think the cable, speaker that is, will affect the balance more than one would think(I am a skeptic by genetics).Jody at BROOKLYN AUDIO where I bought my speakers suggested the silver anniversary by qed, a silver over copper blend that started out too bright but have now mellowed out.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Hi All!

Glad this forum came about as I never could find any one place with de capo owners.  You can look under systems on AudioCircle to view my system (which by comparison to your systems is quite humble).

I would like to move my amplification in the direction of all tubes but for now I am going to stick with my simple integrated until I can put this gear into a dedicated room.  

If anyone has any ideas on how to extract more from my system please share.  

Cheers!

[standingwave]

Hey everyone,

Glad to see the Reference 3 Forum is alive and well. I am thoroughly enjoying the MM de Capo i's. The current incarnation of my system consists of:

Reference 3A MM de Capo i (Piano Gloss version)
James Loudspeaker EMB-1000 Subwoofer
Shanling SCD-S200 SACD Player
Linar Audio Preamp Model 2
Shanling SP-80 Tube mono-blocks (50 W)
Atlantis Reference XL stands (24” sand-filled)
Acoustic Zen Silver Reference and WOW interconnects
Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cables and Tsunami PC’s

This combination sounds incredible, with deep soundstage, plenty of detail, pinpoint imaging, and loads of emotion in the music. I only use the subwoofer if I am listening to electronic music or dub/reggae type stuff. The bass response, while not extremely deep, sounds more natural than any other monitor I’ve heard. To me that’s more important than depth.

I have tried using a large solid-state amplifier with these speakers (Linar 250) but prefer tubes. The solid-state amp is definitely faster and more detailed, but the high frequencies are a bit too prominent. I spoke with Tash Goka at Divergent technologies and he says they have a tweaked version designed for solid-state amps. I have not heard it yet and can’t really offer any comments yet. The 50-watt Shanling mono-blacks provide more than enough power. The de Capos don’t seem overly power hungry and I have never really had to push to amps very hard.

Looking forward to reading more about other people’s experience…

Derek Stewart

[Mario]

Hello Cyounkman (and all the others)

I have been an AudioCircle.com member for a few days now and this is the very first time I post to the forum.

I have been following the creation of this Reference 3A forum and I am very thrilled about it. Congratulations on the ideia!

I have read a little about the Reference 3A MM De Capo-i and it seems that these monitors are very demanding on the type/kind of amplification to suit their needs and get the best out of them.

As I am trying to build my next system - which I hope it would be the final one (a system for life, if that exists!) - I would like to put you a few questions about the "foreseenable" synergistics between these speakers and QUAD amplification.

Given your experience and expertise, would you say that the tubed QUAD II-forty amplification might be the right one for this idiossyncratic speaker? Or should a solid-state option (QUAD 909) be more adequate?

In other words: for someone in love with QUAD amplification (specially tubes), is this the speaker to consider, or should I strike it off the list of candidates?

Let me add, for your guidance, that my musical preferences are classical, choral, jazz and some rock; and that on my digital-source audition list are machines as the QUAD 99 CD-P, Gamut CD1 or Cary 303/200.

Your comments and/or advice will be most appreciated.

Thank you very much for your time.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best regards

Mario

PS - I apologize for my english as this is not my natural language.