Acoustic treatment a wife can love

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #20 on:** 19 Jun 2006, 04:16 pm »

Chris,

> Nice room !! What are it's dimensions ? <

25 feet front to back, 16 feet wide, and the ceiling rises from 8 feet in the front and rear to 11 feet in the center. You can get a guided tour in my most recent video How to set up and treat a room, first in the list on our Videos page:

www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

--Ethan

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #21 on:** 19 Jun 2006, 04:20 pm »

MT,

> I'm sure that most of them can appreciate what a good industrial designer can do with their wonderful ideas to make them much more appealing. <

Sure, but the reality of acoustic treatment is you need to cover a sufficient amount of surface to make a meaningful improvement. Yes, there are "acoustic" products that are small. The problem is they don't do much.

Another option is to build the panels and corner treatment into the room, or cover it with fabric walls etc. But that costs a lot more. So you can have Effective, Affordable, and Attractive, but no more than two at the same time.

--Ethan

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #22 on:** 20 Jun 2006, 06:45 am »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

Chris,

> Nice room !! What are it's dimensions ? <

25 feet front to back, 16 feet wide, and the ceiling rises from 8 feet in the front and rear to 11 feet in the center. You can get a guided tour in my most recent video How to set up and treat a room, first in the list on our Videos page:

www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

--Ethan

Thanks Ethan, nice room....and good video !!!!

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #23 on:** 20 Jun 2006, 02:42 pm »

Quote from: brj

You are probably thinking of the Eighth Nerve Response series "Corner" or the Adapt series "Triangle".

Perfect. I'm sure that is what he was talking about. Thanks a bunch.

Larry

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #24 on:** 20 Jun 2006, 02:50 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer

MT,

> I'm sure that most of them can appreciate what a good industrial designer can do with their wonderful ideas to make them much more appealing. <

Sure, but the reality of acoustic treatment is you need to cover a sufficient amount of surface to make a meaningful improvement. Yes, there are "acoustic" products that are small. The problem is they don't do much.

Another option is to build the panels and corner treatment into the room, or cover it with fabric walls etc. But that costs a lot m ...

Put me down for effective and attractive then.

I loved your video by the way. Actually I think I can make it affordable as well. Just gonna take a little sweat equity. But I enjoy these projects.

bpape · « **Reply #25 on:** 20 Jun 2006, 09:31 pm »

Oh yeah. Some sweat equity can definitely bring the cost down.

Bryan

rotcoddam · « **Reply #26 on:** 21 Jun 2006, 03:13 am »

Men,
We must get some balls. We can't constantly let our wives humiliate us into a corner of the garage where we can put our tools and other stuff used to fix up her house. I get so frustrated reading post after post about WAF this and friggen WAF that! Please assert yourselves. What's the most she can do?
Call Ethan or some other company now and order a bunch of this. You will be happier in the long run and not have a beaten down feeling all the time. Signed, Marty the Mad Doctor.

rotcoddam · « **Reply #27 on:** 21 Jun 2006, 03:49 am »

OK, just kidding, but only a little. I know they can make life miserable if not treated nicely. I just happen to have one of the gems out there who doesn't care if her front room is taken over by an audio freak. (thankyou Lord, I don't deserve her)
So I know it's not so easy. I'm sorry for being so harsh. Hey did I remind everyone that she bought me an X-Box 360 for Fathers Day. Oh, with 2 wireless controllers too. HeHeHe. Marty

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #28 on:** 21 Jun 2006, 02:22 pm »

Marty,

> Call Ethan or some other company now and order a bunch of this. <

Thanks for the plug. I'll also mention that lately I've been getting more calls from people along the lines of, "Fortunately, I have a dedicated room so I don't have to worry about a conflict with appearance in the living room." So that's a good trend. A better trend would be for people to start thinking of this stuff as looking cool. Hey, I think it looks cool!

--Ethan

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #29 on:** 21 Jun 2006, 07:51 pm »

Quote from: rotcoddam

OK, just kidding, but only a little. I know they can make life miserable if not treated nicely. I just happen to have one of the gems out there who doesn't care if her front room is taken over by an audio freak. (thankyou Lord, I don't deserve her)
So I know it's not so easy. I'm sorry for being so harsh. Hey did I remind everyone that she bought me an X-Box 360 for Fathers Day. Oh, with 2 wireless controllers too. HeHeHe. Marty

My wifes been out of town for the past week visiting family while this thread has been going on and I let her read it this morning. I showed her Ethans room and figured she would flip out. Her response was as follows: "That's not bad if you did that in a den". I almost passed out. She even suggested putting "matching things in the corners" She said you do what you think is best. I peeked around the corner to see if Rod Serling was coming in to my room to tell me that I've just entered the 'Twilight Zone'. The floating door in space turned into an Accoustic Panel.

joamonte · « **Reply #30 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 07:10 am »

Quote from: Ethan Winer on 19 Jun 2006, 04:16 pm

Chris,

> Nice room !! What are it's dimensions ? <

25 feet front to back, 16 feet wide, and the ceiling rises from 8 feet in the front and rear to 11 feet in the center. You can get a guided tour in my most recent video How to set up and treat a room, first in the list on our Videos page:

www.realtraps.com/videos.htm

--Ethan

Hi Ethan,

I saw your video and agree with most of the things you said inside,but one thing I disagree is that you mention absortion behind the loudspeaker is not important,because speaker only fire forward, and this is very different from my experience..

I notice that the RPG recomendation of placing the absorbing 1/3 each side (on wall behind the speaker), and 2/3 side wall (area that nearer to the speaker) do help in the imaging and soundstage,without the absorbtion the loudspeaker dont sound as clean/as "pure" as it should be.

I guess it also could be because I am using the QRD diffuser at my listening real wall and at the centre behind the loudspeaker as RPG recomended,which is very different from your concept of room treatment...

But nevertheless,I hope you try to replace the panel at side and behind you speaker into absorbing type and let us know what is your opinion,and after placing the absorbing surface panel, place some diffuser infront of the TV glass will help in the centre imaging of the 2 channel music from my past experience...

Glenn K · « **Reply #31 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 12:46 pm »

I would try it both ways and see what you get. Have seen a lot of room test graphics and sometimes it works well to have treatment on the front wall behind the speakers and sometimes it makes little difference. Same goes for the back wall also.

Glenn

joamonte · « **Reply #32 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 05:00 pm »

Quote from: Glenn K on 10 Jul 2006, 12:46 pm

I would try it both ways and see what you get. Have seen a lot of room test graphics and sometimes it works well to have treatment on the front wall behind the speakers and sometimes it makes little difference. Same goes for the back wall also.

Glenn

I would rather listen to the sound than see room test FR or waterfall to compare is there any different between with and without treatment at the front wall...LOL.

Dont get me wrong,I am also using ETF and simple program like REW to do room measurement,but its just that sometime the very little different in measurement graph, sound lot of different in real life...

So under what situation in your opinon works well to have treatment on the front wall and when is not?

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #33 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 05:39 pm »

joamonte,

> one thing I disagree is that you mention absortion behind the loudspeaker is not important,because speaker only fire forward, and this is very different from my experience.. <

It depends on the loudspeakers' dispersion and where they are in relation to the front wall. In the photo you posted the speakers are right at the wall. With a setup like that I can see how absorption on your TV might help. And it could help a little in other situations too. But it seems to me the front wall is the third most important place for mid/high frequency absorption. Most important are the first reflection points on the side walls, ceiling, and floor. Second, in many rooms anyway, is the rear wall. If that wall is less than ten feet behind you, direct reflections will affect imaging and also skew the response due to comb filtering.

Another situation where absorbing on the front wall is useful is in rooms that are too live generally. In that case the front wall is just one more good place you could treat to tone down the overall ambience. Believe me, I've measured all the reflections in my own room at the listening position, and even with the TV right there in the middle, any contribution from the screen is negligible. Again, my speakers are far enough forward of the screen not to matter. Where yours are slightly behind the TV. But perhaps I could have made these points more clearly in the video. There's always a next time!

--Ethan

John Casler · « **Reply #34 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 07:37 pm »

Quote from: joamonte on 10 Jul 2006, 07:10 am

I saw your video and agree with most of the things you said inside,but one thing I disagree is that you mention absortion behind the loudspeaker is not important,because speaker only fire forward, and this is very different from my experience..

This is dependant on the loudspeaker. Many would be amazed at just how much sound comes from the cabinet and or the speaker itself (even front firing).

To find out about yours, simply take a SP meter and take a reading at 85-90db 1m in front then do the same for sides and rear.

You'll be very surprised at what some speakers put out to the sides and rear.

joamonte · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 02:47 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer on 10 Jul 2006, 05:39 pm

joamonte,

> one thing I disagree is that you mention absortion behind the loudspeaker is not important,because speaker only fire forward, and this is very different from my experience.. <

It depends on the loudspeakers' dispersion and where they are in relation to the front wall. In the photo you posted the speakers are right at the wall. With a setup like that I can see how absorption on your TV might help. And it could help a little in other situations too. But it seems to me the front wall is the third most important place for mid/high frequency absorption. Most important are the first reflection points on the side walls, ceiling, and floor. Second, in many rooms anyway, is the rear wall. If that wall is less than ten feet behind you, direct reflections will affect imaging and also skew the response due to comb filtering.

Another situation where absorbing on the front wall is useful is in rooms that are too live generally. In that case the front wall is just one more good place you could treat to tone down the overall ambience. Believe me, I've measured all the reflections in my own room at the listening position, and even with the TV right there in the middle, any contribution from the screen is negligible. Again, my speakers are far enough forward of the screen not to matter. Where yours are slightly behind the TV. But perhaps I could have made these points more clearly in the video. There's always a next time!

--Ethan

Hi,sorry for the mislead,the last picture I post was my living room and the Close cell foam Diffuser infront of the TV set is somthing I make for sale in my country...these photo is only to show my customer how these diffuser can be use for...

These is my room old photo.

I have recently do some rearrangement of the loudspeaker back wall diffuser and some other major re-arrangment, but still no time to take a photo....will post the latest photo later on if you interested.

Now(not the same as the photo) the 2/3 wall area behind my speaker is cover will absortion , the centre area diffuser remain...while my listener back wall are all difffuser and side wall 60-70% cover with 4" foam .....8 foam LENRD bass trap and a pair of MegaLENRD Bass Trap all place at the ceiling corner...and not to foget a pair of Real trap is place behind my speaker 2 back corner.

I found these configeration of Absorbtion/Diffuser/Bass trap make the best small sound room(3m X 4.2m) I hear so far from my humble 20 years of Audiophile experience...but of couse,if I have a bigger room I should able to make it even better...

back to the topic.

Why I believe loudspeaker back wall affected sound is because I hear it from my system, that it able to transform my system from good, into unlistenable if I place incorrect treatment behind the loudspeaker...

I like the effect of a diffuser at the centre of loudspeaker, because it sound like I have added in a centre loudspeaker in my system.....even I seat slight off centre, I can still feel the vocal or violin etc sound like its from the phatom centre (as like in real life) even when only using 2 LR speaker.

But for the wall direct behind the speaker, I notice if I use diffuser at these area,the imaging will be affected,and the sound become too "live" in some fast music...

I hope you can try that too,with your expertise you should be able to find out more than me...

Espeacially the diffuser infront of TV glass ,it is very effective, one of my customer told me:

"once place this diffuser infront of my TV set, now I unable to listen music without it...the soundstage become very flat , and vocal sound like shouting, instead of singing to me......."

joamonte · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 02:53 pm »

Quote from: John Casler on 10 Jul 2006, 07:37 pm

Quote from: joamonte on 10 Jul 2006, 07:10 am

I saw your video and agree with most of the things you said inside,but one thing I disagree is that you mention absortion behind the loudspeaker is not important,because speaker only fire forward, and this is very different from my experience..

This is dependant on the loudspeaker. Many would be amazed at just how much sound comes from the cabinet and or the speaker itself (even front firing).

To find out about yours, simply take a SP meter and take a reading at 85-90db 1m in front then do the same for sides and rear.

You'll be very surprised at what some speakers put out to the sides and rear.

Very true,if we think about the sound that we heard, most fundamental frequencies are below the tweeter range....which mean all these frequencies that are not as directional at high frequencies, will "flow" to the back of the speaker, hit the back wall, "mix" with the direct sound from speaker within 20 ms and send into our ear...

joamonte · « **Reply #37 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 04:49 am »

Quote from: joamonte on 11 Jul 2006, 02:53 pm

Quote from: John Casler on 10 Jul 2006, 07:37 pm
Quote from: joamonte on 10 Jul 2006, 07:10 am

I saw your video and agree with most of the things you said inside,but one thing I disagree is that you mention absortion behind the loudspeaker is not important,because speaker only fire forward, and this is very different from my experience..

This is dependant on the loudspeaker. Many would be amazed at just how much sound comes from the cabinet and or the speaker itself (even front firing).

To find out about yours, simply take a SP meter and take a reading at 85-90db 1m in front then do the same for sides and rear.

You'll be very surprised at what some speakers put out to the sides and rear.

Very true,if we think about the sound that we heard, most fundamental frequencies are below the tweeter range....which mean all these frequencies that are not as directional at high frequencies, will "flow" to the back of the speaker, hit the back wall, "mix" with the direct sound from speaker within 20 ms and send into our ear...

In fact from the link of realtrap

http://www.realtraps.com/art_front-wall.htm

even 180 degree still DO have sound energy 10Khz form the tweeter, not to mention when we toe in our loudspeaker (the centre of loudspeaker back wall) is only at about 90 degree of the loudspeaker where even 4 or 8 Khz still pretty loud as compare to the front axis...chould it be one of the reason why we can hear the effect of placing treatment at wall behind the loudspeaker?

95bcwh · « **Reply #38 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 06:55 am »

joamonte,
It's a nice listening room that you have. I must try some of these diffusor stuff once I move into my new house when I have a bigger room to work with..

What speakers are those in your pictures?

barry

joamonte · « **Reply #39 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 01:11 pm »

Quote from: 95bcwh on 12 Jul 2006, 06:55 am

joamonte,
It's a nice listening room that you have. I must try some of these diffusor stuff once I move into my new house when I have a bigger room to work with..

What speakers are those in your pictures?

barry

The speaker is Marten From Sweden.

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/205marten/