Hong Kong listening session - preamps, cables, power filters

Jay S · « **on:** 2 Jun 2003, 03:50 pm »

Guan, Emmanuel (Icefox), Kenneth and I got together on Saturday for 2 listening sessions, first at Emmanuel's place then at mine. We listened to a lot of stuff:

- Various preamps (DACT passive, Symphonic Line Erliechtung, Joule Electra LA-100 MkIII and the Minimax (the last 3 all tubed))
- Symphonic Line cd player
- Various dacs (Mensa Plus, custom pencil tube dac)
- Various interconnects (Slinkylink, Groeneberg, etc)
- Various speaker cables (Slinkylink, Mogami)
- Power filters (Blue Circle, Quantum Symphony Pro)

I'm going to put down what I recall and hope that the other guys can add their views as well. Here goes, in no particular order:

The 3 tubed preamps did not give much away in terms of transparency to the DACT passive. Nor did the passive give away any dynamics or bass. In general the passive sounded very natural and clean, but we had to crank it up to 1 detent short of unity gain for all the 2v sources. It produced satisfying volume, but sometimes we wanted a little bit more. Guan's pencil tube dac has a 3.3v output, which was better suited for the passive.

The Minimax was the giant killer of the 3 tubed preamps. It is a very small preamp, and only has 3 tubes. But it is packed to the gills. The large chokes are visible through the cooling vents. It went toe to toe with Emmanuel's Symphonic Line pre, which must cost easily 5x as much. At my place the Minimax had slightly better clarity, layering and top end extension that the Joule.

The Joule produced very smooth musical and non-fatigueing sound, perhaps easier to listen to for extended periods than the passive or the Minimax. But, it had a bit of extra sweetness to the treble and was a bit less transparent. I think that an inline bybee filter (Hi Wayne) will do the trick - as the bybee has been said to add a more natural and extended treble while also reducing noise and improving detail/resolution.

The Mensa Plus and the custom pencil tube dac seemed pretty darn close! There were some differences at first but they became much less as the pencil tube dac warmed up. We didn't focus on the dac comparison too much. Both seem to be great dacs. They are clearly better than the Sony XA777ES. The pencil tube dac seemed to be an improvement over the Symphonic Line cd player, but I note that we did not have a true digital cable at Emmanuel's place (we used a copper IC).

The IC/speaker cable comparison came up as Icefox wanted to try the Slinkylinks against his Groeneberg ICs. In his system, the Slinkylink seemed to add smoothness and clarity; it did not at all have the stereotypical bright silver sound. But, adding the Slinkylink speaker cable seemed to soften the sound. In his system, the Slinkylink IC plus Mogami speaker cable gave the best sound. Interestingly, at my place (I use the Slinkylink speaker cable) there was no such problem. Maybe next time I can bring the Nitro over to Icefox's place.

The Quantum Symphony Pro was the biggest revelation of the evening. Guan let us try it at Emmanuel's and my place. It is a parallel filter and, wow, it really made a difference! Smoother and silkier treble and smoother mids, tighter bass plus greatly increased coherence. We heard this improvements with all the different combos of equipment, at both Icefox's place and mine. It is an expensive piece, though ($600 new, $300 used), but you really do hear the difference. Kenneth is big on parallel filters and has 2 of the Symphony Pros, 2 Quantum Electroclears and 2 Blue Circle Noisehounds. He can tell you more of the performance of each of these parallel filters.

The Blue Circle Music Ring 1200 was only used in my system. We listened mostly with just the front end components plugged into it. At the end of the night, we plugged my eAR digital amp into it and my system's sound took a large step forward. The sound got much more open, bass got tighter, and soundstaging became more accurate. It did not seem to limit dynamics. The thing works.

Well, that's what I can recall off the top of my head. Let me know if there is anything I can clarify. Kenneth, Emmanuel and Guan should probably add their impressions to give a full account of what went on. It was a long day... we started at 5pm and ended at 2am!!

kennethlhc · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 07:39 am »

It was really an enjoyable evening.

I totally agree with Jay's comment.

All four preamps are neutral and musical enough to let us enjoy the music and at the same time torturing(!!!) the systems. I could live with anyone of them without complaint.

I was wondering if it's the accoustic characteristic of Emmanuel's listening area that unfavoured the Slinkylink speaker cable.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 08:59 am »

Kenneth,

Can you please talk about the benefits of the Quantum Electroclears? I'm interested in what you have to say about them in general...Thanks.

kennethlhc · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 09:18 am »

Mad dog,

The first impression was the effect of ElectroClear is more dramatic, you would notice that there are more details in the higher-mid to high freq.

But in fact, the Symphony Pro has greater effect because it's positive influence is in the whole freq range and width and depth.

Jay S · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 09:55 am »

Kenneth had suggested to me that I start off with the Symphony Pro (makes sense since it benefits the entire frequency spectrum) then prioritize the Electraclear and Noisehound depending on whether I want incremental benefits to focus more on the mids/highs or bass, respectively. Only problem is, the Symphony Pro is by far the most expensive of the 3!

JohnR · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 10:39 am »

Jay, what's a pencil tube DAC?

EchiDna · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 10:52 am »

http://www.ahfartaudio.com/6021W2doc.htm

this is a kit with pencil tubes available here in Singapore (no personal connection). I've not heard it, but user comments say that is it very giid indeed. Quite cheap too...

nature boy · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 11:32 am »

Jay and friends,

Glad you had such a great time together and thanks for sharing your observations. I am intrigued with the Eastern Electric minimax preamp, as it has received some top notch reviews over at Audio Asylum and the importer is a regular poster.

Wonder how this pre stacks up against the Van Alstine Transcedent 7 preamp?

NB

Jay S · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 02:23 pm »

NB,

I'd be curious to find out myself! I have heard great things about AVA gear over the past few years. In fact, I almost got the Odeon Lite DAC when I happened across a used PT P3a at a price I couldn't resist.

While triangulation never quite works in audio because of differences in partnering equipment, room, and preferences, Tyson has the Transcendent 7, and used to have the Symphonic Line preamp (and perhaps has posted some comments). We heard the SL preamp this weekend and played it back to back with the Eastern Electric (love that name!) Minimax. Maybe one of the other guys can chime in with more specifics on the Minimax vs the SL.

Guan · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 04:41 pm »

Hi everyone,

The listening session was very enjoyable. Jay did a great job as usual in summarising our experiences. My 2 cents:

Pre-amps
I agree that the 3 tube pre-amps we heard were superlative. The EE Minimax sounded transparent with ample clarity and great tonality. It didn't sound slow, rolled off or fruity. For value and performance, I would say it's the tube pre to beat!

A passive DACT provides pretty much the most simple a signal path to an amp as you can get. And it is certainly transparent. But make sure you have sufficient gain, reasonable length ic's and that it matches the rest of your system. It does NOT hide any defects up or downstream.

The beautifully built and impressively engineered SL pre was an obvious mate for Icefox's SL monoblocks. But the passive DACT and Minimax did not seem to give much, if anything, away to the mighty SL pre, just different flavours. Which is saying quite a lot!

Jay's Joule was musical, musical, musical. It may not sound as subjectively 'accurate' as the DACT or Minimax especially in the top-end but this is a minor flaw. I could just enjoy hours of utterly fatigue-free listening with this pre.

Speakers
Icefox was using Harbeth Super HL5 speakers in his system. These largish standmounts sounded transparent with a detailed and airy top end. But I felt they were a little boxy and it did not reproduce a very 3D soundstage. Perhaps some experimenting with positioning required?

Jay's nOrh 9.0 sounded a little less airy than the Harbeth (which has supertweeters) but are very coherent and detailed. Bass was impressively full and tuneful. His eAR Two amp is a excellent match.

DACs
I felt that Jay's Mensa Plus sounded very smooth and utterly grainless. Very analogue like !

My 6021 pencil tube DAC sounded a bit more forward and less smooth until it warmed up. When it finally did, it was a toss up as to which was better.

EchiDna pointed out the right basic description of the pencil tube DAC but I've had mine upgraded almost to the max with separate chokes, dual power transformers, AudioNote silver pio caps, kiwame resistors, point-to-point silver wiring, WBT rca jacks and a built-in DACT and Seiden switch. Whew!

The Quantum Symphony Pro consistently managed to improve the sound of both systems tested. Icefox was floored when he heard the Pro in action just plugged behind his listening sofa. He spent the rest of the evening turning it on and off repeatedly just to convince himself it really works. He was still shaking his head in wonder after we left Jay's place at 2am

That's about all I can think of. Big thanks to Jay and Icefox for having HAM over to hear their systems.

Guan

Chazz · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 04:51 pm »

Hi Jay,

I live in HK too! If you don't mind I'd love to join you guys next time. I have a Consonance Reference 1.1 tube pre and the FT LW-1 and it would have been good to compare those against the ones you tried out.

Just give me a buzz on chazz_au@hotmail.com next time.

Cheers
Charles

Guan · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jun 2003, 05:49 pm »

Hi Charles,

I'm sure Jay will echo my sentiments when I say that you're very welcome to join us the next time the HAM meet.

We're not a large group but our main aim is to have fun and test out lots of brilliant equipment!

Guan

Jay S · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Jun 2003, 12:47 am »

Hi Charles,

It would be great if you could join us next time! I've heard great things about Consonance in general (many good products) and about the FT LW-1, which would have been an excellent comparison with the DACT passive (to see what its impedance compensation circuit can do) as well as the various active tube pre amps.

There are no specific plans for the next get together. Essentially, we just start emailing each other when we have new things to listen to or if we want to try something out. Maybe a shootout of Kenneth's 3 different parallel filters (Symphony Pro, Electraclear, Noisehound)?

On my end, I've got a pair of bybee inline filters being made and have a new Acoustic Reality power cord for my amp that is now breaking in on a computer monitor. These will be for my main system. I've also got a pair of RAD Micro speakers being made in cherry wood with a custom mahogany stain that I will pair up with the Radii 300B SET amp in my bedroom. http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/micros.html

Not sure what new things the other guys are hatching up...

Cheers,

- Jay

Chazz · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Jun 2003, 04:47 pm »

Jay, Guam

Happy to join you guys next time - just give me a buzz. My current gears are:

Teac T-1 Transport
Bettercables Digital
Monarchy Audio DIP
Smart DIO
Consonance Reference 1.1 (with Phillips Miniwatt)
M-80 Interconnects
Odyssee Stratos Monos
B&W N805s
Eight Nerve Room Treatment
PS Audio Juice Bar

Upgrades for the future are probably to the Mensa DIO and upgrading the Monos to extreme status although they are a beast to ship back to the states. I will be comparing the Odyssee with a Jeff Rowland Model 10 in a few weeks (friend just bought it).

Cheers,
charles

Oxia · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Jun 2003, 05:18 pm »

Hi Jay,

Which PLC would you say had the most beneficial impact on your system: the Quantum Symphony Pro or the Blue Circle Music Ring 1200? I'm curious because we both have the same amp, yet oddly I haven't found the eARTwo to be particularly senstive to PLCs. As a case in point, I'm currently using a Stealth Power Purifier to great effect in my system, but when used with my amp alone the effect is indetectable to me.

Thanks

Sa-dono · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Jun 2003, 06:17 pm »

Quote from: Chazz

I will be comparing the Odyssee with a Jeff Rowland Model 10 in a few weeks (friend just bought it).

Please keep me or us updated on this. I would love to know your friend and your thoughts on this. TIA!

nature boy · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Jun 2003, 10:57 pm »

Thanks again for the comparisons. Found an area dealer that has both the Audible Illusions M3A, which I have in my system, and the MiniMax. So its off for a listening session one of these weekends. BTW, in e-mails with Bill O'C the N.A. distributor there was some mention about a phono stage coming out from Eastern Electric. I have asked Alex the man behind EE to give me some idea of time frame. If the phono pre is as good as the preamp - could be another great value high end product.

Cheers!

NB

Jay S · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Jun 2003, 12:24 am »

Quote from: Oxia

Which PLC would you say had the most beneficial impact on your system: the Quantum Symphony Pro or the Blue Circle Music Ring 1200? I'm curious because we both have the same amp, yet oddly I haven't found the eARTwo to be particularly senstive to PLCs. As a case in point, I'm currently using a Stealth Power Purifier to great effect in my system, but when used with my amp alone the effect is indetectable to me.

The Blue Circle Music Ring and Symphony Pro had different impacts on the sound, but in different ways. The Symphony Pro added a extra refinement to the treble and tightness to the bass and a bit of soundstage depth. Once you heard it you didn't want to give it up. When we plugged the eAR into the Blue Circle Music Ring at the end of the night the soundstage seemed to get significantly wider and generally more spacious. Refinement improved too but what really struck me was the soundstage.

My front end components were plugged into the Blue Circle throughout the evening, so we could not compare the 2 power products in terms of their relative effect on the whole system. Frankly, I feel the products complement each other and I am now in the market for a good parallel filter.

A few days earlier, when I first unplugged the eAR from the Blue Circle I noticed an increase in treble grain and glare so I am pretty comfortable that the Blue Circle helps refinement. Peter did say that he didn't think a power filter would do much since the eAR has a very good power filter built in, but Guan, Icefox and I all heard an immediate difference when we plugged the eAR into the Blue Circle. I now have Peter's CryoPhon power cord burning in on a computer monitor and look forward to seeing what it does in about a month.

audiojerry · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 Jun 2003, 12:39 am »

Amazing, more input from HK'ers all the time!
Can I come?

I'm curious. How essential is it to know the language, and how many of you guys speak Chinese (although there are dozens of dialects).

Are there any opportunities in HK for mainframe computer programmers?

Jay S · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Jun 2003, 01:51 am »

Jerry,

I'm sure I speak for the group when I say that you and others from AC would be more than welcome to join us! In fact, come over and we'll make sure we have a special get together.

Among our small group (Guan, Icefox, Kenneth and myself) I am the only one who does not speak Cantonese (which is what is commonly spoken in Hong Kong). They tolerate me anyway.

Seriously, I manage to do ok when I visit audio shops here, and you can live here without speaking Cantonese. But, knowing the language is always a plus. The caveat to that is whether your place of work operates in English or Cantonese. In my case, it is English.

As for opportunities for mainframe programmers, I can't really say since I am not part of the IT industry. But, perhaps Icefox and Kenneth may have some idea.

Cheers,

- Jay