[TheChairGuy]

Just intrigued by these oddities in vinyl-philia. I understand, from a little reading, the theoretical advantages in groove tracking (and hence, distortion), but has anyone had experience with them?

[andyr]

Just intrigued by these oddities in vinyl-philia. I understand, from a little reading, the theoretical advantages in groove tracking (and hence, distortion), but has anyone had experience with them?

Hi ChairGuy,

Well, no-one's answered your post so I thought I'd chip in ... not that I know that much about parallel arms!   

As I understand it, a properly set up linear-tracking arm has zero groove distortion (because the stylus is not performing an arc across the record surface) and probably doesn't suffer from the anti-skate "complications" which normal arms exhibit.

However, it needs a highly sophisticated control mechanism to move the arm slowly across the record surface, in line with the grooves and may suffer from "cogging" if the control mechanism is not good enough (ie. the stylus goes in a jagged line /\/\/\ ... across the LP surface, as it tries to follow the groove).

I don't think any parallel arm mfr has developed the "perfect" mechanism.

Regards,

Andy

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Andy,

Thx for the answer here, bud.

Sooooo, it seems we have is a problem with a solution that is out of grasp (groove distortion) with even linear tracking arms.

Isn't it amazing how many actual problems are inherent in vinyl playback.....but it STILL sounds better than most (theoretically correct) CD sources.  I still shake my head in disbelief over this - I mean, vinyl surely has it's problems, but you coax better and better, more enjoyable music from it as you spend more.....throwing money at CD playback is just an attempt at creating some kind of musical event.

At least, that's been my experience.

I know this is getting off topic now, but it just struck my quite profoundly the last couple days as I've been listeing to different amps.

[meilankev]

Back in 1981, I bought a Studer Revox B790.  I still own it, and it still sees duty in my wife's system.  It is linear tracking with a very small tonearm (I think 3/4 of an inch in length if I remember right).  Cool turntable that was the king of my main system until 4 years ago (booted to the 2nd team by my Basis).


My advice for this is the same as it is for all things audio: "It's not the technology used that is important - it's the skillful implementation of that technology."

Good luck,
Kevin

[hifitommy]

overhang and alignment are pretty straightforward.  if the arm is a good one, like the phase linear (pioneer), ET, mapleknoll, walker, sony, yamaha, or mitsubishi, results can be gratifying. 

avoid the cheap little plastic ones with pmount cartridges.  those are a waste of time.

if you can find a mapleknoll in good condition, you will be rewarded with VIVID sound that gets VERY close to the master tape.

[bluesky]

Hi Guys

I too will add my bit, however, I too, have little relevant experience myself.  Except, and this is a big except, I heard a system using this type of arm, and it was without doubt, the best analogue I have ever heard.  It was at a meeting of a member's system of our small informal audio club here in Brisbane, Australia.

The trouble is I really don't know which part, or parts, made it so good.  I have been meaning to catch up with the chap who built this system to learn more.  The turntable had a tangental arm, was bolted to the wall with heavy gauge metal, wood and bricks etc. 

The wiring was silver I believe along with the cartridge clips.  Silver cartridge clips are a bugbear of mine and I am determined to make my own one day soon.  My thoughts on this so far are to somehow crimp the clips made from silver wire around 1.00mm or so thick onto the cartridge and then drill a tiny hole in the clips which the tonearm wire could then wound through and made neater by heat shrink.  It has always seemed odd that brass is used in such a critical point.  I am not a big cable guy as such but reason that the tiny signal from the cartridge (especially moving coils) needs all the help it can get!

Bluesky   

[philipp]

I've been doing some research on this and found a VERY interesting post on Vinyl Asylum. The jist of the story is that spherical stylii were once the norm and mid-60s to 80s records were cut to negate the distortion that occurred when played back with such a stylus on a pivoting tonearm. Now, it seems elliptical stylii are the norm but that distortion will be heard as the arm pivots toward the end of the record. Apparently, an elliptical stylus on a linear tonearm does not exhibit this problem. Also note that this distortion "cancelling" technique was only used during that period, older and newer records leave it up to your hardware.

[Scott F.]

....... has anyone had experience with them?

Hiya Chairguy,

The only linear tracking arm that I've played with was the old Rabco ST8 mounted on top of the HK turntable. It was more than a little fickel.

Tell you what, heres one that you could try that won't break the bank.

http://airtech.atspace.com/mg1.htm

$599 is a pretty darned decent price for this arm. I've read (some time ago) that the guys who have tried it seemed to think it was a pretty good arm. I haven't read much about it lately. You may try a search over at the Vinyl Asylum.

Oh, and if you are wondering why I haven't reviewed it,..... the guy that builds them doesn't send out review samples. I asked him about one a couple of years ago.

[TheChairGuy]

Holy crow Scott - I wouldn't begin to know where to start mounting THAT thing on my rig 

It is quite Goldberg-ian in appearance, ya' know 

[JoshK]

Thanks Scott for the link.  If I decide to bite, I'll send it to you first for a review, how is that?  The same goes for any tonearm I buy, if you haven't tried it before, in return I ask only your feedback.  Sound fair?

Analog is one of those things we must rely upon other's reviews since it is difficult to try numerous arms & carts.  I am in the midst of working on a second arm setup for my Teres, planning to add a lo-output MC dynavector (starting to become a dynavector aficionado) to the setup.  Haven't decided on an arm, might be a little in the future.

[Scott F.]

Thanks Scott for the link.  If I decide to bite, I'll send it to you first for a review, how is that?  The same goes for any tonearm I buy, if you haven't tried it before, in return I ask only your feedback.  Sound fair?

Analog is one of those things we must rely upon other's reviews since it is difficult to try numerous arms & carts.  I am in the midst of working on a second arm setup for my Teres, planning to add a lo-output MC dynavector (starting to become a dynavector aficionado) to the setup.  Haven't decided on an arm, might be a little in the future.

Thats one heck of an offer Josh Your Teres and my Opera are pretty similar designs so I'd expect similar sounds and results from whichever arm goes on them.

Tell you what, if you can scrounge up the bucks, the Dynavector 507 MkII arm kicks some serious bootie. It is the most cartridge tolerant arm on the market that I know of. The mass of a cart plays very little effect on this arm due to its super short armtube (there are other determining factors but thats the biggest). Another big plus is the removable headshell. You can now swap out carts in less than a minute. I love mine.

[bluesky]

Hi Guys

Here is a link to the Cartridge Man's new "Conductor Tonearm", at $3,300AUD it is out of my league.

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/prod419.htm

Bluesky

[JoshK]

How much different/inferior is the 505 to the 507mkII?  The 505 is up on audiogon a whole lot cheaper.

[TheChairGuy]

Hi Guys

Here is a link to the Cartridge Man's new "Conductor Tonearm", at $3,300AUD it is out of my league.

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/prod419.htm

Bluesky

As it's from The Cartridge Man - it's almost certainly a terrific arm, but likely fiendishly overpriced.  $US1000 for modded and re-tipped Grado Green or Gold, a $150 cartridge isolating sandwich made with $1.00 in parts, and now a $2000 air bearing tonearm that uses a $5.00 aquarium filter.

I give the boy a serious 'attaboy' for inventiveness, but I think he laughs everytime he makes a large deposit at his local HSBC branch in the UK 

[nathanm]

This may be a side note to the topic, but I was wondering if groove distortion is solely produced by the playback mechanism or if the vinyl itself can be permanently damaged by playing the record on 'improperly' setup systems.  For instance, is the transient crunchiness I hear on some old vinyl simply because the poor thing was dragged through cheap equipment or is it just because my rig can't hack it?  Breakup on the treble is the one thing that makes me hate vinyl playback, way more than surface noise; so I definitely share the curiosity in linear arms.

[Russell Dawkins]

could be either, Nathan.
mis-tracking causes distortion, but also causes damage to the groove walls which sounds like the original distortion even when played by a stylus capable or tracking it properly. All you then hear is an accurate rendering of the damage.

[TheChairGuy]

This may be a side note to the topic, but I was wondering if groove distortion is solely produced by the playback mechanism or if the vinyl itself can be permanently damaged by playing the record on 'improperly' setup systems.  For instance, is the transient crunchiness I hear on some old vinyl simply because the poor thing was dragged through cheap equipment or is it just because my rig can't hack it?  Breakup on the treble is the one thing that makes me hate vinyl playback, way more than surface noise; so I definitely share the curiosity in linear arms.

Nathan,

No question - folks manhandle vinyl regularly - that's why buying used is such a crapshoot. I'm hesistant to buy any used vinyl for more than $3 a piece as a godly percentage is simply too 'crunchy' to listen to.  I go to obscene lengths to clean and re-vitalize (LAST Vinyl Preservative) each record....but if it's been manhandled, no herculean efforts can save it. 

I avoid those 'bargain' oldie Big Band and Classical records as prior to 1960 it was played on some heavyweight arm with a cheap spherical stylus attached tracking at 5 grams.  The record pretty much finito, no matter what CPR you try to blow into it.

That's but one of the true downsides to vinyl - it is and can be abused easily.

I'd think a finer stylus and better tracking tonearm like a linear tracker would only make it all the more noticeable.  You're paying more to hear more...and you hear more of someone's ham-handedness in the process. The crunchiness you hear is probably becasue you have too good of a playback system at your disposal.  But, if you clean new or lightly used records, you will be rewarded with great playback.

[Scott F.]

I'd think a finer stylus and better tracking tonearm like a linear tracker would only make it all the more noticeable.

You know, I've found just the opposite. When I went true high end on my table, I was amazed at how much more quiet my vinyl got, and I own some damned trashy pieces of vinyl. I'm not sure if it was the table, the arm or the cart (I'm still using my Graham Slee Jazz Club) but everything definately got quieter than my old Rega 250/Heavyweight/Super Elys/Audio Note IO setup. I'm at a loss to explain why (honestly) but it was drastic enough that several of the GAS guys made mention of it too.

[nathanm]

Another negative factor is that once you make yourself hyper-aware of sound quality (as is the audiophile wont), you can't go back to the halcyon days of your youth when you didn't notice such tonal anomalies.  When I was a kid I played my records constantly on one of those big wooden console things and I never gave a thought to any of the tweaky stuff I do now.    I mean, I cleaned the dust bunnies off the stylus with my bare finger fer cryin' out loud!  Heh!  It's a miracle some of them still sound as good as they do. 

You're paying more to hear more...and you hear more of someone's ham-handedness in the process. The crunchiness you hear is probably because you have too good of a playback system at your disposal.

Now there's a solution I can live with; get rid of the crappy $2500 worth of HiFi foo foo and get a used Victrola at a yard sale!

I recently copied a Vivaldi record of my mother's to CD.  It was actually a very HiFi affair, they recorded it live, direct to disk apparently.  (ooh, ahhh)  Anyway, the whole thing tracked pretty nice except for one loud crescendo where it went crunchy.  And this thing had been played on mid-fi players its whole life so I wasn't sure if that's the way it was or if it was just what my rig was telling me.  But that wasn't nearly as upsetting as when we listened to it on HER system.   But of course, the frames of reference between us are so vastly different it ends up being a wash.

[Scott F.]

How much different/inferior is the 505 to the 507mkII?  The 505 is up on audiogon a whole lot cheaper.

The two appear somewhat similar but when you start looking closely there are a few major changes. Heres a pick of the blue 505 on aGon.





If you notice the antiskate mechanism is the fishing line and counterweight variety on the 505.



On the 507 Mk II the anti skate is handled with a spring and graduated scale.

Looking again, the 505's post and horizontal bearing are off center of the main beam of the arm where the 507's main beam and horizontal bearings are directly over the post. Also, the 507's loading of the horizontal bearings appears to be the better design. The main beam hanging off the side of the 505 sure looks as if it could cause some weird bearing wear if not even lead to some bearing chatter because of its loading.



Overall, the 507 simply looks like a better thought out design than the 505 (maybe "more refined design" is the better term). I can't knock the 505 though because I've never heard it so take everything I've said with a grain of salt. The 505 is definately a lot less money and there's something to be said for that.

Hey Josh, I bet Tito from the NYAR would have some good input on the 507 too. He's got the 507 and ?another? arm mounted on his table.