Bi amping suggestions for RM30s

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Se7en

Bi amping suggestions for RM30s
« on: 28 May 2006, 06:19 pm »
Hi all,

For numerous reasons, I'm thinking seriously about bi-amping my RM30s (once I get them) and was wondering what some of you are using to drive the panel section in your bi-amped configuration.

I'm open to tube and ss, but will ultimately looking for something that will be both detailed but smooth & non-fatiguing (for long sessions).

I currently have a solid state front end (Tact) and will be using SS for the lower frequencies.

Thanks!

-Gabriel

warnerwh

Bi amping suggestions for RM30s
« Reply #1 on: 28 May 2006, 08:46 pm »
I'm using the Van Alstine AVA 550exr. This amp is a hybrid with tubes only in the input stage.  The amp is extremely smooooth. Dynamics and imaging are outstanding.  Instrumental timbres and vocals are much more natural than any SS amp I've heard.

This amp has just a tad bit of tube sound. I really can't recommend it highly enough for this duty.  There are absolutely zero, nadal, none or whatever SS nasties or harshness.  Another Vmps RM 40 owner wrote a review of this amp in the review area of audiocircle. It's a good thread to read.

Another amp I used is a Blue Circle BC 24 which is also a hybrid. This amp is also excellent with a bit more tube sound to it. The BC 24 however is 2,500 for an  80wpc amp where the AVA amp is 2,200 for a 250 wpc amp or 1,800 for a 160wpc amp. The AVA amps also have a much superior power supply.

With Vmps speakers you'll want the best electronics you can get in front of them as they are brutally revealing. Once things are right though the sound is just incredible.  The realism and enjoyment of music honestly doesn't get any better unless maybe if you spend well into the 5 figure mark.  

Btw there's also an Van Alstine forum here on Audiocircle.

Se7en

Bi amping suggestions for RM30s
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2006, 06:08 am »
Warner,

Thanks for your reply. I had actually read your review of the amplifier a few days ago and have since spent some time on their website.

Would it be your suggestion to look more closely at hybrids than a pure tube solution or just the AVA gear because it is just exceptional on its own merit? Also have you run the AVA full range on your RM40s? How did it handle the bass drivers?

In general I have always been an SS guy (affordable/accessible) and don't really know where to start with tubes. More often than not, any dealer I've delt with only offers solid state gear to audition. One of the vmps selling points was their ability to tell you exactly what was going on upstream. I was thinking that it would be a nice platform to start playing around with tubes.

In any event, thanks for the advice, I'll keep looking at the AVA gear!

-Gabriel

warnerwh

Bi amping suggestions for RM30s
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2006, 08:11 am »
Gabriel: I've not been much of a tube person in the past either. I have owned a couple of tube preamps, an ARC LS 16 and a Cary,  and now two tube hybrid amplifiers under my belt.  If you can afford it the Blue Circle is also an excellent amp. In my opinion the AVA amps are the better deal.

The hybrid amps offer the advantage of not needing any maintenance or biasing of the tubes. The tubes are also inexpensive and last for 6 months ( according to Gilbert at BC) to two years(AVA). These are two attributes I like as a pure tube amp can cost from a couple hundred to a grand to retube.  For 25 to 50 bucks I can retube the 550.

Also pure tube amps are small space heaters.  Some pure tube amps I've heard are overly mushy to my liking. The bass is typically a weak point with the ones I've heard. I've not heard the megadollar tube amps though. So yes, I'd look at a hybrid before a pure tube amp.

One problem is that many cd's aren't very well recorded and have artifacts that are obnoxious. With the hybrid amps I tried these issues are gone completely. At the same time you get all the good attributes of the ss amps.  This is the reality.  

I've not even tried the AVA amp full range.  I'm sure though that it will work at minimum very well.  Van Alstine doesn't like specs and won't even tell you if you ask him for most specs.  Upon looking at the power supply in this amp though it's obvious it's upto the task of handling a difficult load easily.  The transformer is huge, easily dwarfing the Rotel's transformer which is one kilowatt.  I found that interesting as the Rotel is rated at 200wpc and the AVA only 50wpc more.

The only downside to the AVA amps is that you pretty much are stuck having to buy a new one. I was fortunate and was able to get a late model, a 550exr Rev 5,  used for a decent savings. Typically I find used amps and preamps the smarter buy, especially if I have to resell it because I didn't care for it.  That can be more time than the return period allowed.

 Even at full retail though the Fetvalve amps are a bargain. Frank's been at this for several decades and I suspect knows things that many of these younger guys haven't thought of yet.  Now that I know how good this amp sounds in my system I wouldn't have hesitated to buy a new one.

The person I bought the AVA amp from and who's opinion I respect also liked the Parasound HCA 1500a on the bass drivers.  I tried both and kept the Rotel but I think the 1500a is probably just as good. For 500 you can get either on the used market.  

It's very difficult to describe how good the RM 30's are.  Your speakers will give you world class sound if you do your part. This will of course mean that room acoustics MUST be a priority. This is true of all systems but with these speakers it's more important than usual. It's kind of like driving a funny car in the city, the performance capability is there but there's no way you could appreciate it.

If you want any help with setup please feel free to email me. Audio is my favorite hobby and I've been in it since the early 70's.  It says I'm a dealer but it's not what I do for a living as it's only part of my hobby. I don't make any money to speak of. Some people think you make all this money and I can assure you that if my time is worth anything the money I make is less than wages.  Fortunately I enjoy it.

This forum is also full of knowledge. The combination of various Vmps owners' knowledge is worth more than any one person's.  Most Vmps owner's are quite knowledgeable with a good amount of experience.  The combined experience here is substantial, you won't find this knowledge base on the Polk forum :lol: .

The dealers for Vmps are friendly and helpful whether or not you ever bought or plan to buy anything from them. I think we all enjoy this hobby. We also like to make sure that we help as much as we can for people to enjoy their Vmps speakers.  Vmps speakers are so good they're a great bargain. It's what's in my listening room and what I've owned since 96.  When you get yours be sure to share your thoughts.

Another option for you is that there's a dealer list at the Vmps site with our phone numbers. If you'd like please feel free to call me.

Tweaker

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Bi amping suggestions for RM30s
« Reply #4 on: 29 May 2006, 09:36 am »
Good advice from warnerwh.
 If you don't want to spend the money on one of Van Alstine's hybrids I can recommend his solid state amps as the next best thing. I am passive bi-amping RM2s with a pair of Omegastar amps with very good results. Definitely spring for one of the hybrids, though, if they are in your price range. There's also these from the Audio Advisor which has a 30-day money back policy:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=VINCSPT100B

Se7en

Bi amping suggestions for RM30s
« Reply #5 on: 29 May 2006, 06:20 pm »
Warner & Tweeker,

Thanks for the input and advice. I need to school up on the room treatment/acoustics. WAF compliance will most certainly be an issue here. I have been using Tact RCS (2.0 and now a 2.2 X) for several years to help deal with certain room issues.

As for hybrids, I do have some experience here, but always considered the sound to be more SS than tube in nature. In one sense I've been doing this audio thing for going on 13 years. The difference is that I started out in car audio (because I did not at the time have an appropriate space for home audio). The last major system that I built,  used "active" class A tube crossovers and 5 monoblocked class A/B tube hybrid amplifiers (made by Butler Audio before he got into home gear). Again, the main issue with cars is the "room", there is a lot that you can do to deaden and control a car environment, but it will never be the same or as open as a properly set up listening room.

BTW: If you're interested in seeing some images of a super-custom hybrid tube system in a car (done to the max) follow the link :D  This was a true front staging (phase correct) SQ car (not a boom box!!), all drivers were custom made for the car except for the Eton 8" mid bass drivers in the doors.  www.lagmonster.org/transam

In the interim if there is anyone in Northern (or Southern) California who might be willing to audition their Van Alstine, that would be really cool!

Cheers!

-Gabriel