Current state of CDs

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Flyquail56

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Current state of CDs
« on: 27 May 2006, 12:33 am »
Hi All,
I usually just lurk here and enjoy everyone’s posts, but I’ve read two articles lately that I thought others might be interested in. They’re about the current state of CDs, and  immediately reminded me of something Frank wrote years ago in Audio Basics when the 1-bit DACs started to appear. If I recall correctly, it was that these DACs were only capable of about 54db of dynamic range.

The first article is What Happened To Dynamic Range? (answer: it’s disappearing):
http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/?p=64

The second article, Better Sound In Small Packages, includes comments by a well-known recording engineer who feels that CDs should be discontinued in favor of DVD audio, followed by the statement that CDs “require” compression.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/technology/25sound.html?_r=2&th&emc=th&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

It’s not quite clear whether this second comment is made by the recording engineer or the author of the article. Either way, it has me scratching my head. Wasn’t the vastly superior dynamic range over LPs one of the claimed benefits of CDs when they were first introduced? Or am I missing something here? No surprise it looks like sound quality is headed for the lowest common denominator.

Regards,
Mike Hazel

Daemon

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Current state of CDs
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2006, 11:21 pm »
I don't know that compression on CDs is 'essential', but I love the way heavily compressed CDs make my head hurt. No, really. When I have guests I can't get to leave, I play a really nicely mastered CD for a while, just to get them used to how nice it can be, then switch to a heavily compressed CD and tell them this is what I really want; bob's your uncle, they suddenly need to leave. Aspros are cheap, but getting rid of nuisance guests; priceless.

philipp

Current state of CDs
« Reply #2 on: 30 May 2006, 05:47 am »
I think the compression they refer to is down-sampling. Although redbook CDs are 16bit/44.1kHz, the recording industry will use as high as 24bit/192kHz technology. Of course, the files are humongous -- DVDs can carry an album's worth of that kind of data, CDs cannot.

I've got nothing good to say about the kind of compression discussed in "What Happened to Dynamic Range?" If you want to hear your soundstage flatten like a pancake and your harmonics annihilated, just crank up those levels and limiters. Although I love Clinic's music, their CDs are so juiced up that they sound no better on my home stereo than on my old walkman.

Wayner

Current state of CDs
« Reply #3 on: 30 May 2006, 01:44 pm »
I don't know if any of you have recorded a LP onto a CD-R, but I've recorded some that beat their commercially made counterparts. Case in point is a live album of Stephane Grappelli and David Grisman on a Warner Brothers 1981 album. The fidelity of this recording onto a CD-R is remarkable and I recorded it from an old VPI turntable onto a first generation Philips CDR-765! If I may also interject an opinion here, there are a lot of bad recording engineers out there! Their compressors are over used, they have forgotten what stereo is and everything now is a MIDI track. Also the effects machines that are used today to generate reverb don't always have the ability to create a natural sounding soundstage. Another case in point. Why does the Moody Blues Days of Future Passed LP sound better than the CD? Supposedly, the CD was made from the original master tape, while the LP was probably a 4th or 5th generation master to make the stamping. I don't have the answer, but I have some suspects.

strat95

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Current state of CDs
« Reply #4 on: 31 May 2006, 04:57 am »
The latest album from the Red Hot Chili Peppers is a good example.  Listening to the CD, one would think that the album was recorded terribly and mixed with a bus compressor to squash all dynamics.  However, Steve Hoffman posted on his website that he has been hired to release the album on double vinyl.  He listened to a track from the master tapes and he was blown away at the detail, depth, dynamics, and overall the great mix that is present on the master tape that has not been translated to the CD.  It appears poor mastering is the culprit once again.  I wish they would stop this loudness madness.

As for the articles mentioned, I don't know what they mean when they say that CDs are compressed.  It sounds like they are trying to mislead the public into thinking that current CD released are somehow flawed, perhaps to prepare us for the new and improved format that is to come that will trounce the sound of current CDs.

TV

daveshel

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Current state of CDs
« Reply #5 on: 31 May 2006, 05:09 pm »
Speer's article is very good.

I was selling hi-fi (ok, mid-fi) back in the early 80s when CD was on the horizon. We spoke of it as the holy grail, an end to the dynamic limitations if vinyl and particularly casettes. Dynamic range was what it was all about.

I remember commenting in the mid-90s that the focus of the sound market seemed to have shifted to cheap portable devices that were not capable of reproducing the dynamic range of CDs. I joked that the younger generation didn't appreciate the contribution that the CD made and didn't even know what dynamic range was.

So I'm not too surprised at where we are today. Marketing has taken over hardware and software. That's why we're here in the AVA forum: we have chosen performance over marketing.

I bought three brand new vilyl records the other day. Sounded pretty good on my Super PAS 3/U-70 rig. Too bad I missed those longhorns.

Wayner

CD'S
« Reply #6 on: 3 Jun 2006, 01:21 pm »
Just a last note on this subject from me. If you want to experience what a really good CD can sound like, I suggest the Brian Setzer Orchestra on Hollywood Records number HR-61565-2 and another one from a band from England called Camel. The name of the Camel CD is called A Nod And A Wink. Camel produces their own CD's so you will have to buy it from their website, but Amazon may have it too. I run my Sony XA20es thrugh Franks Topp-DAC and these CD's explode! They have dynamic range, purity and can actually stand hair up on the back of the neck. This proves that the technology is sound, but the monkeys behind the mixing consoles are sometimes not knowing what they are doing. The Worst CD I have ever heard is U2's new album How To Dismantle an Atomic Bomb. It is completely compressed and the sound seam to fall out of the speakers onto the floor with no soundstage at all. It's got bass though.

Papajin

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Current state of CDs
« Reply #7 on: 3 Jun 2006, 02:32 pm »
I wonder if this loudness thing is actually an inability to mix well, or what seems likely to me, a marketing decision by the record companies.

Wayner

Current state of CDs
« Reply #8 on: 17 Jun 2006, 05:31 pm »
I just bought the new Donald Fagen CD, Morph the Cat. The engineer put everything right into the listeners face. There is no soundstage. The Nightfly was a much better recording! Perhaps the real problem with CD's is the fact that they show how bad some recordings are.

EMM801

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Current state of CDs
« Reply #9 on: 19 Jun 2006, 01:06 am »
Another popular song that was overcompressed was Santana's "Smooth". Listen to the dynamics on Abraxas or Santana III, they blow it away. Todays music is designed to sound "good" on car stereos and boom boxes.  :roll:

boead

Current state of CDs
« Reply #10 on: 19 Jun 2006, 12:47 pm »
Quote from: EMM801
Another popular song that was overcompressed was Santana's "Smooth". Listen to the dynamics on Abraxas or Santana III, they blow it away. Todays music is designed to sound "good" on car stereos and boom boxes.  :roll:


I’ve heard that same line 20+ years ago.

Its like the crap about ‘the good old days’ – I hate to break it to you but there were NO good old days. The old days were always worse then today, each day that passes gets better.

They don’t make’ music for boom boxes and car stereos. Boom boxes aren’t even popular any more, go to Best Buy and look for them - you’ll see a ¼ isle with light stock.
Car audio is 100 times better then it was. In the ‘good old days’ you had no choice but to replace the stock stereo with something listenable. Today, even a cheap-ass car comes with a very listenable stereo.

I do agree that some music is compressed for a thicker, tighter sound and people generally like that. Most Pop or commercial music is geared for the masses and the popular sound. People have always likes lots of bass and brilliant highs. I know a number of music producers that worked for famous studios throughout the 70’s, compressors and compression techniques were VERY popular and guess what? They still are, the difference is we moved from a all analog world to an all digital world.

And BTW: I think some of the very best sounding recordings are from recent times. Old recordings, for the most part, were hissy, lacked bass and were usually raspy on the top end. It was the nature of the gear that was affordable at the time. Some lucky (and popular) bands got to record in some of the bets studios in the world which did have a great sound but they were few and far between and studio time was grossly expensive.  

Today, even the low end studios sound very good and the high end studios are stellar.

Tinkerer

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Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #11 on: 9 Jul 2006, 10:01 am »
Personally, I actually appreciate compression for certain material.  (I know this is blasphemy to some audiophiles, who will now sniff "coarse oaf" and move on...)

In most of my real world listening environments, there is background noise, and sometimes also a need to avoid disturbing others with loud noise.

The background noise means I have to turn up the volume to hear the quietest parts of a passage, and then, if it has a huge dynamic range, the loud parts explode at a very high volume (SPL).

Conversely, if I limit the volume based on the loudest parts, then I have to strain to hear the quietest parts.

This is a problem, for many of my listening situations.

Compression helps to alleviate this problem.

As for the automobile as listening environment:  Background noise is HUGE in a vehicle, even so-called "quiet" luxury vehicles.  A large dynamic range can be even more of a problem in a vehicle, due to the background noise - especially with material like classical, which frequently exploits dynamic range to the fullest.  Turn up the volume to hear the quiet passage, then get beaten by the sudden crashing loud passage.  So, compression is even more helpful, in this case.

A large dynamic range CAN be used to improve the overall quality of material, without the problems noted above (by virtue of the lowered noise floor in the material).  But too much material overuses it (e.g. the classical music example), for typical listening situations in the real world.

nathanm

Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jul 2006, 01:59 am »
Quote
The background noise means I have to turn up the volume to hear the quietest parts of a passage, and then, if it has a huge dynamic range, the loud parts explode at a very high volume (SPL).
Exactly! :rock:

But seriously, I know what you mean.  What I'd like to see is two mixes, one compressed one for the car and one untampered one for the home. On the same release. (if you're at home with the windows open and live next to a jackhammer testing facility you could play the car mix at home I suppose. :lol:)   Won't add any more mastering time, just make a separate mix with the compression chain bypassed.  Simple.  People can then decide what works for them.  Better yet, just make one uncompressed mix and leave compression up to the playback device.  There's a ton of digital plugins for DAWs out there, why couldn't one or more of these be installed inside a DAC or CD player?

These flat, punishingly loud mixes they are putting out these days are having a negative effect on the end user.  Witness the automatic gain functions in iTunes and Squeezebox for instance.  That proves to me nobody gives a crap about "louder=better" they just want "consistent".  That function is solely there to undo what the know-it-alls at the record companies think we want.

High dynamic range is a natural part of live music (some more than others obviously)  and to me compression should only be used in a technical manner - to limit it to within the range of the recording system or in a creative manner for special effect(usually drums).  But the way its used across the entire mix fulfills neither of those and it just kills the music in most cases.  But it does work for not annoying the neighbors, because I usually don't feel like listening to these cds at all. :mad:

EMM801

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Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #13 on: 10 Jul 2006, 04:24 am »
Quote from: EMM801
Another popular song that was overcompressed was Santana's "Smooth". Listen to the dynamics on Abraxas or Santana III, they blow it away. Todays music is designed to sound "good" on car stereos and boom boxes.  :roll:
Today, even the low end studios sound very good and the high end studios are stellar.
I was referring to the CD remasters, not moldy oldy vinyls. "Guajira" or "Everybody's Everything" sound much more "real" to me than "Smooth".

I guess if newer is always better, MP3, which throws away 90% of the digital data, is best.


Wayner

Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #14 on: 11 Jul 2006, 01:55 pm »
The start of this topic was how many believe that the quality of CD's has gone downhill in many ways from poor recording to overcompression to even the current Red Book design of the CD. I listen to a lot of music. I have for 35 years. From my vinyl years I have noticed how the quality of the recordings became better and better. I attribute this to the advancement in the recording studio as far as equipment, technique and pressings. As an example, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon was once considered a technological and sonic breakthrough recording and for its time, and it probably was. However, any Billy Idol album from a little more than a decade later, will sonically blow Dark Side out of the water. What happened in that time period? The vinyl is the same, but about every process around it evolved. To sum it all up, the format has remained constant, the input has changed. Now if we observe what has happened to the CD format in the same way, we can find similar examples of the same thing. A very poor example of a CD from the early days was Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young Deja Vu. It sounds even worse than the original vinyl and the CD was made from the "original master" 2 track tape (wink, wink). On the other extreme is Neil Young's Prairie Wind. Same format, completely different results. If every piece of  music I bought has the sonic signature of the "good recordings" wouldn't life be great? I believe the CD format can be saved with better DAC's like the Van Alstine and better transports. It also requires better attention to the rest of the process. In the manufacturing world where I spend my time, we have a motto that simply states "it's not what you make, it's how you make it". I do believe the sound of the average CD has slipped a bit lately, but I still blame it on the engineering process, not the format.

WEEZ

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Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #15 on: 26 Jul 2006, 01:36 am »
Interesting thread. I just need to weigh-in here with a few comments. I'll start with a statement that might start a riot with some; but I've just got to say it: CD's suck.

Why? Beats me, but I sincerely mean it. I don't know if it's the format; the engineers; or what- but it's no wonder that there's a renewed interest in 'classic' sounding tube gear... hell, somehow you've gotta' add some 'tone' to the music. The bleached, sterile sound of digital isn't too hard to hear if you listen.

Case in point: try listening to Andrea Bocelli's 'romanza' CD sometime. Wonderfull music and a decent recording. Quite good, actually. Then listen to the tape cassette version. No contest. The cassette beats the CD hands down. Listen to the flat soundstage on the CD compared to the depth and ambiance of the cassette. It's like night and day. You laugh. Try it.

Or listen to a CD version of Electric Flag's 'A Long Time Comin'. You won't last thru two tracks. Play the vinyl version. Then tell me digital is the cat's ass. Ha!

I could list many more examples. Ok, one more. Ray Charles' 'Genious Loves Company'. The CD sounds great.. until you hear it on vinyl. Again, no contest.

Besides the 'thinning' of the soundstage on CD's; instruments don't sound convincing or real. They sound more like a reproduction. So much for progress.

The other aspect of 'CD sound' that really bugs me is that most are just too damn loud. Maybe that's compression? Maybe that just sucks, whatever it is.

Friends of mine when they hear me rant about crummy sound from digital just think I'm nuts- until I play them a comparison. They are stunned. And before you suggest that my digital player needs replacing...I've spent ten years or more upgrading my digital untill I finally have something I can stand. And it still sucks (by comparison to analog).

And from what I've heard of DVD Audio and SACD..let me just say that I have no intention of dumping my vinyl rig (or even my cassette deck) any time soon.

(had to get that off my chest  :oops:)

WEEZ

Russell Dawkins

Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #16 on: 26 Jul 2006, 10:14 am »
I wonder if this loudness thing is actually an inability to mix well, or what seems likely to me, a marketing decision by the record companies.

It's client-driven. Radio stations like to be loud, too. Jazz and classical are traditionally less compressed, but even that is changing.

Tinkerer

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Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #17 on: 27 Jul 2006, 09:14 am »
<snip>...I've spent ten years or more upgrading my digital untill I finally have something I can stand. <snip>

WEEZ


What CD player did you end up with, that you think is "least offensive"?

I'm trying to find a decent CD and/or CD/DVD player for ~$200 or less.  The retail box stores around here sell crap - can't even buy a single disc CD player any more in a retail store, from what I see.

I understand your comments about CD format being inferior, but that's what I've got.  I changed to CD in 1988 because at that time, I, the college student, had no money for decent vinyl or tape - all the vinyl or tape I heard was far worse than CD, given a modest equipment cost and well-used media.  (That's the advantage of CD format - if all you have is a few hundred bucks to spend, you can get much better sound quality with a CD system than you can with tape or vinyl -  no background hiss or pops, no crappy phono cartridge, wow & flutter, or cheesy tape head, etc.)

Now, with hundreds of CDs and decent-sounding gear, I have other mandatory expenses that do not leave me tens of thousands of bucks for high-end esoteric equipment and a significant collection of vinyl albums.  Purists with audio systems costing $20k or more, and hundreds of lovingly-maintained pristine vinyl albums (that never suffered a scratch or blemish), may scoff at lowly commoners like myself, but that's reality.  CD is the closest I can come to audio goodness in everyday life.

A couple years ago, I sampled DVD-Audio, but there's almost nothing released, and most of what is released is just repackaged stuff that was recorded & produced to CD quality or less - not the potentially higher quality of DVD-Audio - so it's really not worth the price premium and constricting DRM of DVD-Audio.

Wayner

Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #18 on: 27 Jul 2006, 11:53 am »
Marantz has an excellent build quality CD single player in the CD5001. However, it's $300. The transport is a Marantz design and is very fast loading. I have a CD5400 from Marantz and use it with a Van Alstine D/A converter and the sound is wonderful. I just don't think you are going to find any CD player for $200 that isn't the garden varity, like a Sony. Sony ES is a different story, but so is the price.
« Last Edit: 27 Jul 2006, 04:55 pm by Wayner »

weirdo

Re: Current state of CDs
« Reply #19 on: 10 Oct 2006, 06:43 pm »

Dog crap in hi resolution.  that is what a bad CD sounds like on a great CD player. If you are going to spend 500.00 plus on a CD player with a decent DAC, then be prepared to hate the majority of your CD collection from the 80's and 90's. I am starting to think about the reverse in CD players. Less resolution may actually smoth the sound out a bit and make the poorly engineered ones sound more tolerable. I hear the Marantz 5001 does that for 300.00. To sum up, a Dianna Krall CD sounds incredible on a good modern player, yet listen to some early humble Pie and you'll be lookin for a new turntable and a V15.