Advice on acoustical treatments for difficult room

fsrenduro · « **on:** 25 May 2006, 08:44 pm »

I have a dual purpose 'great room' that is somewhat open to the rest of the house. The entire back of my downstars is 44' wide, half is the kitchen and half is the family room. The width is 18' and the ceiling 9'. The floor is hardwood with a concrete slab underneath.

I currently have some DIY panels on the wall and behind the entertainment center. I'm thinking of covering the three walls of the family room floor to ceiling with 2'x2'x1" (JM is300 which is OC703 equal).

The other thing I'm thinking of is to have a heavy curtain that will separate the family room when I want to watch movies. My questions are:

1) Should I go floor to ceiling with the fabric wrapped panels I want to build

2) Will a curtain make enough of a difference or is it not worth it (Building a wall or adding doors is not an option)

3) Does anyone have any other suggestions.

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 May 2006, 09:42 am »

Welcome to AC,

Nice space. I have a new 14 ft x 17 ft x 8 ft family room in the basement that is used primarily for TV and I pre-wired for the back two speakers. In a separate room I just added six GIK 244 panels for my (higher priority) audio system, but HT is a bit of a different beast.

In audio the theories go LEDE (Live End, Dead End so you'd fully treat the speaker end of the room to give empohasis to expanding the soundstage); treat opposite surfaces (to reduce echo); and corners/first reflection points (bass is most effectively treated in the corners and imaging is improved with treatment of the first reflection points between speakers and listener).

Any treatment scheme can be overdone, especially in a classy set of rooms like that. And I'm not sure how to best balance audio and HT in most regards, including this one. Good luck.

avahifi · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 May 2006, 12:15 pm »

First suggestion: Remove the ceiling fan and listen again. You can't imagine how much damage those big hanging resonating reflectors do to the sound (off or on) until you hear the system with them gone.

Frank Van Alstine[/u]

woodsyi · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 May 2006, 01:13 pm »

Something probably need to be done to treat the glass window on your right since it's your first reflection point. I wouldn't worry too much on the acoustics in a room like that. Just have fun. What you got in that wine cellar? I will come over and lend you a hand over a bottle of say a 1998 Cheval Blanc. 2000 would be okay too.

fsrenduro · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 May 2006, 03:36 pm »

I guess by the bottom two pictures the ceiling fan looks like it dominates the room but if you see the panoramic one it really doesn't. Considering how much flat surface area there is in the rest of the room I would think the ceiling fan might help a little with diffusion (A very little I know).

The room sounds good up to about 70-75 db. Beyond that it starts to overwelm conversation throughout the whole downstairs.

Does anyone have any opinions specifically about doing 1" rigid fiberglass on the three walls floor to ceiling?

And while that door is not a cellar it is a closet that stays a consistant temp so it is being used to store wine. I'm lucky because my wife's cousin owns a small winery in Sonoma. Good stuff.

rezonjawinecellars.com

fsrenduro · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 May 2006, 03:38 pm »

I also forgot to say that the windown on the right has a fabric blind (it's pulled up in the picture). It's not the best but better than nothing. I think by looking at the picture there has to a serious balance between looks and function. I have to be creative with my treatments.

Sonny · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 May 2006, 04:09 pm »

WOW, I would love to have space like that...even if it gives me acoustic problems...

First off...
What is the problem with the room? What are you trying to accomplish with the treatment? Is the room live? is there a bass hump? what is it?
Then you'll be able to address the problem.

T

woodsyi · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 May 2006, 04:45 pm »

Quote from: fsrenduro

The room sounds good up to about 70-75 db. Beyond that it starts to overwelm conversation throughout the whole downstairs.

I am guessing your room has bass issue and 1" fiberglass won't solve that. Some 4" panels straddling the wall/wall or wall/ceiling corner or some columnar base trap with high WAF will probably help. That fireplace is a PITA in terms of acoustics. Removable 1" panels could be placed behind your blind in front of the window to damp that early reflection point. What gear are you running?

How does your cousin's wine compare to Jordan's and Stuhlmullers? They are both in Alexander Valley and 2002s were good. How much merlot and Cab Franc does he use?

fsrenduro · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 May 2006, 04:59 pm »

I don't really have an issue with the bass, probably because it isn't getting caught anywhere. The bass ends up going through the whole house.

It's more because the room is cavernous and reflective that at higher volumes the whole downstairs is dominated by the stereo. I'm running Onix Ref 3/Ref 100 front end, Axioms qs8 surrounds. The front is getting 300 watts each and the rears 100 watts. The sub is a Hsu vtf-3 mkII.

The only thing I can think of would be to have a curtain that cuts off the family room from the rest of the house when we need it to. Since I'm committed to the ceiling and floor being flat and reflective I thought the curtain and floor to ceiling treatments on three walls would make the room more inviting.

As far as anymore info on the wine, that is out of my realm of knowledge. Shoot Steve an email and ask him I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you anything you want.

woodsyi · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 May 2006, 05:12 pm »

My guess is that your room is big enough to dissipate energy until you go above 75 db. Above that you are getting modal resonance. Can you measure your room to see what they are? I am still guessing it's bass modes that's the most troublesome and you will need bass traps.

warnerwh · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 May 2006, 03:57 am »

Bass traps and thicker panels are first things needed to be done. If you can treat the first reflection points that will help alot.

Heavy drapes will do more good than harm over that window. A double set of heavy drapes separating that room and the rest of the house would help significantly. A sliding wall or something with more mass and rigidity would be better though.

Nice room btw.

G Georgopoulos · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 May 2006, 04:05 am »

Look there's no thing as dificult room i know what some people say
so do about speaker placement to do something like anechoing
chamber you would be a fool, the best thing is leave the room alone
adjust volume and play with speaker placement abit if strong bass move
skps alil away from the corners/walls untill you get a response you
are comfortable with

a good audio system will sound good in any room

my two dollars

cheers

JohninCR · « **Reply #12 on:** 27 May 2006, 06:04 am »

Quote from: G Georgopoulos

a good audio system will sound good in any room

I disagree completely. In a very bad room, no system can sound good unless you use your speakers like headphones.

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 May 2006, 02:31 am »

A/V stores have some of the worst room acoustics. I visited one that used an 11 ft x 11ft x 11ft room that had floor to ceiling glass on two walls. I tried to listen to the last small floorstanders Meadowlark offered, but everything sounded bloated and fussy.

I'd say the worst thing about this room is that it can be shared with so many others doing so many other things.

Yes, the windows on the right side could use something, but heavy curtains will probably only work within limited a frequency range.

avahifi · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 May 2006, 03:01 am »

Pull the fan listen again. Or, don't. I've only been doing this for 55 years.

FVA

fsrenduro · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 May 2006, 05:32 pm »

Quote from: avahifi

Pull the fan listen again. Or, don't. I've only been doing this for 55 years.

FVA

FVA,

This isn't a knock on your knowledge. I have a room that is a highly functional part of our house (outside of just home theater and music). We live in a climate where it is warm year round but we don't NEED a/c. A huge part of not needing central air is having ceiling fans to take the edge off of warmer days & nights, and while I believe that the ceiling fan might make a difference if removed I don't see how it would be the solution to all the acoustical challenges in my room. When weighing the pros/cons of the ceiling fan I'm willing to sacrifice whatever acoustical challenges the fan may have to remain comfortable year round.

JohninCR · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 May 2006, 06:47 pm »

Quote from: avahifi

Pull the fan listen again. Or, don't. I've only been doing this for 55 years.

FVA

I'd think after 55 years you would have come up with a solution that doesn't include removal. If the housing resonates, add damping. If the blades are too uniformly reflective, add some creative dispersion to the ceiling above the fan, or move the ceiling fan closer to the seating position (where it would do a better job anyway). I think that wall of TV and other stuff flush with your speaker placement is likely to be far more detrimental to the sound than the ceiling fan. I'd experiment with speaker placement before doing anything else.

avahifi · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 May 2006, 08:54 pm »

I am just staying pull it down for a trial listen. I bet it won't go back up again. Ceiling fans are a huge acoustical problem. Been there, heard that myself in my own sound room. Nothing else helped much at all until I finally looked up and said "duhhhha" and dropped the fan. I would never had guessed.

Frank