[Marbles]

Marbles:
And at the same time I am trying to make the point that others should be aware of what types of speakers they will not be capable of driving.

Abex,

Once again be careful.  It seems that the specs of the Odyssey Stratos are not all that impressive, but in real world  use on some of the most difficult speakers to drive they seem to do a great job.

All ETR and now I am saying is that it's difficult to say how any component sounds without hearing it for yourself hopefully in a system you are very familiar with.

I don't think ETR and I know I wasn't commenting on the specific amps in your post, just a general type of philosophy.

BTW, thanks on the CD's

[eric the red]

ABEX says: "The ART Audio amp that goes for $230 and is being modded for $500 does not have the power and capability of these amps and I think it is just short of a ripofff unless they are really dynamic or I am really missing something."

Golly-I guess calling something you've NEVER HEARD "just short of a ripoff" isn't REALLY saying that Don's amp mods are a ripoff now is it and that Don was just kidding when he said that he found it almost impossible to clip the amp??  To paraphrase the immortal Jason Wong: STFU. I'm done here.

[Brad]

I had a 40w tube amp that did a much better job of driving my speakers than the original LeAmps.

It keeps coming back to system synergy......

Since the Art is a pro audio amp, I'm pretty sure it can deal with a 2 ohm load.  I'd like to hear it, in both modded and un-modded forms.   I'd also like to hear LA2's.

[ABEX]

Well if it were myself and I had $700-$800 to spend on amps at the moment I would look into the Redrose stuff. Someone has told me they are affilated with Mark Lev and made in China. The specs I read are that they put out 50\watts into 8ohms and 100watts into 4ohms which is respectable.

Have not done to much reading into Odyssey ,but I know they are highly regarded and they are a copy of another design. They are forward Bias'd also which is an area that Ralph the designer of Atma-Sphere told me that this is the main ceiteria in taking the veiling out of AB amps. That is one of the reasons I decided to get the LeAmpII's. Other factors looked positive such as components used and design features.
 
I asked questions not only of MB before deciding on getting the LeAmpII's.

[eric the red]

Could you please enlighten us all on what model Red Rose amp (another amp that you are recommending and have NEVER HEARD) you are talking about for $700.00 with that power rating? And while you're at it, maybe you'd like to give us your thoughts on the Stratos' sonic signature and whether Klauss knows what he is doing with his design?

[doug s.]

a few points here.

red rose takes korsun gear, sticks their name on it & then marks it up 200-300%.  some deal.

opinions on gear one hasn't heard are pretty worthless.  

while specs are a starting point for investigating gear, specs can be misleading.  if the art amp were rated 65w into 8 ohms, then the mfr could show it doubles into 4 ohms.  does this make it a better amp?  marketing types can rate a 100w-8 ohm amp at 65w, yust so they can say it doubles power into 4 ohms.

more specs are misleading info - i had a rogue magnum 99 preamp, rated at 150 ohms output impedence.  real-world use told me it was *at least* 2kohms output impedence.  i had a really severe impedence mismatch in my system w/the rogue, something i dint have at all, w/a cary pre, rated at 800 ohms output impedence...

one final point about the art amp - there *aren't* any specs on the modded unit, so stock specs may not be indicative of what yure getting w/a modded wersion.  

doug s.

[Rob Babcock]

Wasn't this thread about the nOrh amps once?

[doug s.]

i have nuttin' against norh amps.  according to their specs, i'm sure they sound great!  

sorry, i couldn't help it...

seriously, i don't like seeing product getting slammed, where the person has no experience w/it...

doug s.

[brotherman-5th floor]

ETR is it me or do you hold a grudge against MB? Is this the same grudge since the Audio Review days or is this a new one?

[mbarnes]

In reply to ETR.  

I saw the Stratos equipment for the first time at the Ohio Aduio Show.  I was quite impressed with both the look and sound.  The cases were very well built. The sound was quite good.  Given the price of the Stratos, I would have to say it is a very good value.

[Marbles]

Not that he needs it (the defense), but I have been in private contact with ETR for YEARS and most recently about his (and my) postings in this thread.

At no time did he ever indicate anything against nOrh or MB.

What his posts in this thread are about is someone making remarks unfavorable about an amp he has not heard.  This is a hot button for ETR.

Nothing more, nothing less IMO.

MB, I agree on the Stratos, but ETR was just yanking ABEX's sausage because he knew ABEX had never heard the Stratos before.

[eric the red]

Read what Marbles says. And norh doesn't concern me one way or another and I hope everyone is very happy with their norh stuff. Here's my point: If somebody came in here and said something like "The $100.00 Art/Dio that Wayne is modding looks like a ripoff to me, even though I've NEVER HEARD one in my rig", people on this board would be ALL OVER them in a heartbeat wouldn't they??  If you have never heard something with your own ears then DON'T COMMENT ON IT! Get it?

[ABEX]

I guess I need to hear everything as regard to specs which I based my comment on .

Tis is what I based my comment on and why I chose to get the LeAmp even though I was considering the ART until I saw what it put out and there was no indication of what type of specs there were to the unit.If I were to get it I would have been disappointed as it would not have had enough power.
=======================================
  Remember reading that a one benchmark about how good an amp is can be measured at how much power can be delivered when Halfing the Impedance rating. As an example lets say an amp is stated to deliver 200watts at 8ohms and then delivers 400watts at 4ohms then deliver 800wats into 2ohms.Does the ability to double it's rated output that way tell you anything about the amps ability besides being able to drive a wider range of speakers? TIA,ABEX  


Actually, it tells you several things.

1. It tells you the designer was using his head while working, and recognizes the fact that nasty things like impedance drops, phase shifts, etc actually do exist, operate in real life like it or not, and attempt to modify the amp's performance into real world speakers, as opposed to lab test loads (usually a bank of high power resistors);

2. It tells you the power supply of that amp has been really well done, no skimping. No output stage can deliver real world power into real world speakers if it doesn't have an energy pool to draw that power from;

3. It tells you the output section in particular, but also the whole amp, has been conceived with proper capability to negotiate even very difficult loads, which gives you freedom to choose among speakers according to taste, and not to have to think about drive capabilities, and

4. It tells you the amp's performance, such as distortion and frequency response, will be modified very little by even evil loads, which is a hallmark of any good design.

As a sideline, it also tells you whoever designed it, was one competent designer and worthy of respect.

On the other hand, however important that is, it's not the only factor deciding on the overall quality of the sound. Let me put it this way - such an amp stands a better chance of sounding good than another without such capabilities.

This means less than perfect loads will not curtail the amp’s dynamics, and that it will in fact drive almost anything somebody decided to call a speaker.

Cheers,
DVV
==========================================================
I'd do more than that - I'd say power supplies are THE place to start. It's quite simple - the whole product rests on power supplies, without good power supplies, the rest is usually meaningless, and in any and all cases devalued.

The most common and sensible tweak of any product is modding the power supplies. No matter how poor it may sound, after that mod it will sound better, every time, never fails.

Of course, those are absolutes, and there is a relativity factor here as well. If you have to double the product's price to get a 15% improvement in sound, well, that's hardly rational, is it?

there are TWO things I'd say to you:

1. By all means, do start from the power supplies, and
2. Remember, it's all a balance, to have significant gains you need to mod at least a few things, never just one.

BTW, you found some good brains to pick; Audi has one of the best electrical arrangements in the entire car industry, in my view, better than Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Your paw-in-law sure knew what to pick, kudos to him.
=================================================

[ABEX]

Did you read that?Did you GET IT! It's the last time I will post it.

BTW I did not call it a RIP-OFF ,but others that have written me had stated that they could not see the value in it and straight out stated it was in context of other Pro Amps they had tried like the Stereophile ClassB rated Crown amp.

Maybe you should learn to read instead of criticise before telling someone what they think and mean.

The review of the Preamp is a good example .There was nothing negative in it that I could see only the fact that it was still cold from just burning in and there might be tube rolling to do.

[Jay S]

red rose takes korsun gear, sticks their name on it & then marks it up 200-300%.  some deal.

Sorry, Doug.  This is not true.  The markup is over 1,000%!!     I bought a Korsun u2 in Shanghai for $180.  The Red Rose Rosette 1 sells for $2000.  

[eric the red]

ABEX says on page 1 of this post: "The ART Audio amp that goes for $230 and is being modded for $500 does not have the power and capability of these amps and I think it is just short of a ripofff unless they are really dynamic or I am really missing something. "  I guess saying "it is just just short of a ripoff " is not really saying that it's a ripoff , especially since you've NEVER HEARD Don's modded amp. You can stop with the power supply mumbo-jumbo too. In one ear, out da other...Golly-I kind of feel like Jason Wong    

[brotherman-5th floor]

ETR says on another thread regarding LA II:

"Just my 0.2 here and NOT sour grapes: Norh tends to ship their new products long after they initially announce when they will be shipped. If you could read the archived posts at Audio Review from a few years back (you can't) when Norh was all the buzz there, you would see what I mean. And I'm speaking from experience here. I've never understood why Norh can't fully develop a finished product, physically get the ready-to-ship product into their warehouse, then provide the details and pictures of the finished product and be able to ship the product to their customers right away or at least ship in a reasonable timeframe as to the initial promise of a shipping date. Or at the VERY least, give a definite shipping date far enough in advance so their customers will have a concrete idea when to expect the product. Maybe they're seeing what kind of interest the new product sparks before they decide how many to initially produce?"

NOT sour grapes ETR

[eric the red]

No not sour grapes BM and I'll stand by what I said: Barnes and co has a history of making a lot of promises about when their products will be shipped compared to when they actually DO ship. And the Audio Review archives would tell the same story if still available. You've been posting on the internet audio boards for about as long as I have and know it's true. Barnes is a good salesman, however why not get the product finished, say that it's ready to ship, then deliver the product when you say you will? Two channel audio is a pretty small market and companies like norh live for internet word of mouth. I've also said that I think the Prism 6.9 is one great speaker lest you forget (and I waited a LONG time for those MFs ) and I've been through a lot of speakers here at component central. And yes I think any company who chooses to post on a manufacturers forum on a totally free public audio board should expect a little criticism now and then. This is a gigantic free advertising service for companies like norh and not everyone believes everything manufacturers say on these forums.

[Rocket]

hello,

mmm interesting thread, i don't think we need to go into personal insults tho.

i do however agree with 'eric the red' on one important point, it is very hard to do comparisons just by reading specifications.  abex i know that your really keen on buying the leamp 2 but time will tell you whether it is any good.

in january i took a leap of faith and had built the aksa 100.  i sought opinions from others, but in the end decided to take a chance and bought the amp kit.  it was much better than i could have hoped for.

good luck with your purchase.

regards

rod

[doug s.]

hi jay,

i guess i misunderestimated how much of a rip-off red rose really is!     but, seriously, i tink i would cost mebbe a bit more for me to get one here in the states than in hong kong...

regards,

doug s.