A I2S Question for Steve

gongos · « **on:** 10 May 2006, 09:57 pm »

You mentioned that the basic I2S modded Benchmark easily beat a turbomodded Benchmark without the I2S. How would a stock P-3A fed by one of your I2S converters compare to a non-I2S turbomodded Benchmark fed by the standard Offramp?

Thanks.

audioengr · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 May 2006, 05:55 am »

Quote from: gongos

You mentioned that the basic I2S modded Benchmark easily beat a turbomodded Benchmark without the I2S. How would a stock P-3A fed by one of your I2S converters compare to a non-I2S turbomodded Benchmark fed by the standard Offramp?

Thanks.

I believe a Turbomodded Benchmark DAC-1 using S/PDIF will beat a stock P-3A using the I2S interface.

Steve N.

TomS · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 May 2006, 11:56 am »

Steve,

Is there any scenario whereby you could accomplish the equivalent to the Off Ramp I2S + I2S modded Benchmark DAC with a Squeezebox as source instead of the Off Ramp I2S?

I know you've been working with the Apple Airport Express according to your site, but I already have some investment in the SB3's and was thinking about trying a standard Benchmark with one.

Tom

krikor · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 May 2006, 05:23 pm »

BINGO!!

PC/Slimserver>CAT5>Squeezebox>I2S>DAC

That's what I've been lurking about and searching for over the past couple months as I start to put together a PC Audio system.

For me, the interface and remote with Squeezebox is much better and easier than using Foobar (especially for the others in my home). If an SB could be modified with an I2S output it seems you'd have most of the benefits of a Foobar>USB>I2S system but without the remote operation/display issues.

Hey Steve ... my guess is that there are more than a few of us out there that would love to have an I2S Squeezebox. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

audioengr · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 May 2006, 09:03 pm »

Quote from: TomS

Steve,

Is there any scenario whereby you could accomplish the equivalent to the Off Ramp I2S + I2S modded Benchmark DAC with a Squeezebox as source instead of the Off Ramp I2S?

I know you've been working with the Apple Airport Express according to your site, but I already have some investment in the SB3's and was thinking about trying a standard Benchmark with one.

Tom

It may be possible, depending on the chips used in the latest SB. I only evaluated the original version SB, not the latest one. Unfortunately, I already have too many expenses to buy yet another thing to evaluate. I am actually more excited about the new Belkin Wireless USB that will be out in July. This will allow you to use ANY software player you want with USB converters, including the USB to I2S, and it will support 24/96 as well.

Steve N.

kfr01 · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 May 2006, 10:48 pm »

Quote from: audioengr

I am actually more excited about the new Belkin Wireless USB that will be out in July. This will allow you to use ANY software player you want with USB converters, including the USB to I2S, and it will support 24/96 as well.

Steve:

You got that right. I can't wait for that Belkin to hit the market. Using your USB to SPDIF or I2S converters, the need for a squeezebox is greatly reduced... IMO.

On that note, care to share any information on the Offramp Turbo 2?

Cheers,

Karl

TomS · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 May 2006, 12:29 am »

I'm not familiar with the Belkin unit you mentioned, but I've grown accustomed to the convenience of the display and remote of SB3. I suspect the SB3 is at least similar in architecture to the original one. I know the 2 and 3 are very close. Are you saying it was not feasible with the one you looked at?

I'd definitely be willing to send an SB3 your way to experiment with

BTW, I liked Marbles' Off Ramp I2S->P3A setup quite a lot when I heard it at his place.

audioengr · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 May 2006, 05:47 am »

Quote from: kfr01

Quote from: audioengr
I am actually more excited about the new Belkin Wireless USB that will be out in July. This will allow you to use ANY software player you want with USB converters, including the USB to I2S, and it will support 24/96 as well.

Steve:

You got that right. I can't wait for that Belkin to hit the market. Using your USB to SPDIF or I2S converters, the need for a squeezebox is greatly reduced... IMO.

On that note, care to share any information on the Offramp Turbo 2?

Cheers,

Karl

The Turbo 2 is a design of my own. Still uses the M-Audio Drivers. I expect it to sound better than the modded Transit. Still selling modded Transits for a couple of months. I have not fabricated the board for the Turbo2 yet but its ready....

Steve N.

audioengr · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 May 2006, 05:48 am »

Quote from: TomS

I'm not familiar with the Belkin unit you mentioned, but I've grown accustomed to the convenience of the display and remote of SB3. I suspect the SB3 is at least similar in architecture to the original one. I know the 2 and 3 are very close. Are you saying it was not feasible with the one you looked at?

I'd definitely be willing to send an SB3 your way to experiment with

BTW, I liked Marbles' Off Ramp I2S->P3A setup quite a lot when I heard it at his place.

I may take you up on that. The problem with the original SB was the mezzanine board which was glued down. Have you opened the new one to see what chips are used?

Steve N.

TomS · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 May 2006, 04:15 pm »

Not yet, but Wayne at Bolder and Vinnie at Red Wine Audio know these inside and out. Maybe they could comment?

JoshK · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 May 2006, 04:24 pm »

Steve,

Is it the receiver chip or the Dac chip you need to know? I could take a look this evening. I too am one of those that feels that a SB I2S mod would be hugely popular, even though I myself might not take you up on it (if I can't DIY it, then I won't let myself own it...just as a discipline for learning). There is a huge infiltration of SB's into the audiophile community it seems, so at least the niche isn't a tiny niche.

audioengr · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 May 2006, 04:36 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

Steve,

Is it the receiver chip or the Dac chip you need to know? I could take a look this evening. I too am one of those that feels that a SB I2S mod would be hugely popular, even though I myself might not take you up on it (if I can't DIY it, then I won't let myself own it...just as a discipline for learning). There is a huge infiltration of SB's into the audiophile community it seems, so at least the niche isn't a tiny niche.

Josh - may be interesting to me. I have not pursued SB much because:
1) the performance will not match my USB solutions and I am after the ultimate sound
2) Vinnie and Wayne need to make a living

There should be a codec or reciever chip in there. This is what I need to know.

Steve N.

JoshK · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 May 2006, 04:43 pm »

Quote from: audioengr

1) the performance will not match my USB solutions and I am after the ultimate sound

Why is that? Is it because it converts from another format prior to conversion to I2S?

I'll get back to you this evening unless someone else who knows off hand jumps in first.

I personally don't like the SB web based application too much, but it isn't that hard to work with and you can even drop some code in for convolving. The UI with remote and VFD display is quite superb IMO and makes up for this. Foobar is superior to Slimserver IMHO, so its a trade off. The Nokia tiny tablet though might make the foobar remote interface superior to the SB's. Haven't tried.

For me, the biggest advantage of the SB over USB solution is putting the PC a long distance away from my listening room. In my case I dropped a 50' cat5e cable from my den down to my living room. USB isn't apt for doing that as I understand it.

kfr01 · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 May 2006, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

For me, the biggest advantage of the SB over USB solution is putting the PC a long distance away from my listening room. In my case I dropped a 50' cat5e cable from my den down to my living room. USB isn't apt for doing that as I understand it.

This is why Steve is excited about the Belkin wireless USB device...

Problem solved.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 May 2006, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: kfr01

Quote from: JoshK
For me, the biggest advantage of the SB over USB solution is putting the PC a long distance away from my listening room. In my case I dropped a 50' cat5e cable from my den down to my living room. USB isn't apt for doing that as I understand it.

This is why Steve is excited about the Belkin wireless USB device...

Problem solved.

Unless this press release is underestimating it's performance, I'm not sure "Problem solved" is quite the right answer...unless the user plans to move the computer into the same room.

Quote

This Hub allows people to place their laptop anywhere in the room while still maintaining wireless access to their USB devices, such as printers, scanners, hard drives, and MP3 players.

Quote

Beginning in early spring, (Updated 2/06: Ship date change to July 2006), Belkin will offer a four-port hub that will enable immediate high-speed wireless connectivity for any USB device without requiring software. The CableFree USB Hub gives desktop computer users the freedom to place their USB devices anywhere in the room without running long cables. Laptop users gain the freedom to roam wirelessly with their laptop around the room while still maintaining access to their stationary USB devices.

[/i]

Honest question...am I missing something?

TomS · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 May 2006, 06:17 pm »

Big selling point for me is not having the computer in the room. Even my Thinkpad laptop sometimes makes too much background noise for me in the listening room.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 May 2006, 06:20 pm »

Quote from: TomS

Big selling point for me is not having the computer in the room. Even my Thinkpad laptop sometimes makes too much background noise for me in the listening room.

Which is why many people - including me - have chosen a different path.

kfr01 · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 May 2006, 07:23 pm »

Double:

Nope, you aren't missing something. I wasn't aware of the device's limitations.

I personally can't handle the SB interface...

audioengr · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 May 2006, 05:57 am »

Quote from: JoshK

Why is that? Is it because it converts from another format prior to conversion to I2S?

No, it's because the bandwidth of WIFI is insufficient to handle upsampled data streams.

Steve N.

krikor · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 May 2006, 05:22 pm »

Quote from: audioengr

Quote from: JoshK
Why is that? Is it because it converts from another format prior to conversion to I2S?

No, it's because the bandwidth of WIFI is insufficient to handle upsampled data streams.

Steve N.

Yes, but aren't the bandwidth restrictions eliminated when using a wired Squeezebox? Of course for upsampled audio the limiting factor becomes the capabilities of the SB (website says it will pass a maximum 24bit/48khz digitial signal).

I would think that if you are just passing non-upsampled audio in the original CD bit/sample rate, there should be no difference between USB>I2S and SB>I2S.

From there, if you wanted to upsample, you could go into a Perpetual P-1A or some upsampling DAC ... though I know, software upsampling at the PC supposedly sounds better (I have not yet had an opportunity to compare as I'm still setting up my PC system).