[timbley]

I've been thinking about the issue of pleasure and gratification lately.  Some reading led me to the topic of dopamine and it how affects the brain. It occurred to me that there's no real way to get ahead with it. If you use up your dopamine fix on one thing, you'll have that much less available to enjoy something else. So why not save it up and learn to use it on something that helps you make money, or keeps you fit, or on making unpleasant chores more fun? Why use up enjoyment on hi fi and music if I'm not making a profit on it?

Then I read some more and came across this quote here

What hormone is associated with the forming of strong memories related to music?
Oxytocin. Oxytocin is released in both traumatic and ecstatic situations. Oxytocin tends to "erase" existing memories, and help encode new memories.

Further reading about Oxytocin suggests that it is quite benificial, and there's no such thing as too much of it!
Check out this.

So folks, I think we're on to a very good thing here. Our fascination with hi-fi relates directly to music, making this a very healthy and beneficial hobby.

[jules]

The idea that you can get to decide what you want your endocrine system to do is more than optimistic I'd suggest. You're putting the cart in front of the horse. The suggestion that it might be clever to "use" dopamine to make money, keep fit or enjoy chores actually makes me feel very uneasy.

Music is not inherently pleasurable except for the fact that it evokes feelings in us based on our own experience as human beings. All the musical intricacy of compostions is never going to bring a tear to the eye of a computer.

Forget the chemicals. Try experience.

jules

[timbley]

The idea that you can get to decide what you want your endocrine system to do is more than optimistic I'd suggest. You're putting the cart in front of the horse. The suggestion that it might be clever to "use" dopamine to make money, keep fit or enjoy chores actually makes me feel very uneasy.

Music is not inherently pleasurable except for the fact that it evokes feelings in us based on our own experience as human beings. All the musical intricacy of compostions is never going to bring a tear to the eye of a computer.

Forget the chemicals. Try experience.

jules

We don't have to decide what our endocrine system is going to do. We just have to understand a bit about how it works and realize when it's being hijacked by circumstances that aren't in our best interest. It's amazing how cognitive functions can cause a drastic re-interpretation of the sensations that are coming from our various systems, resulting in huge changes in our response. For example, I changed my eating habits dramatically a year ago in response to some new information. Many of my favorite foods of the past are utterly ignored now. My interest in ice cream, for instance, is absolute zero. This isn't because I lost my appetite, or feel guilt. It's because I am thoroughly convinced that it's overall effect on me is more harmful than good. Now I love other foods, and I enjoy them just as much as I used to enjoy junk food. The physical benefit is clear. It's great! And no more is there cognitive dissonance between what I feel I want vs. what I think I should want.

The interesting thing about dopamine is that it is associated with a huge variety of inputs. Without it, a lot of them just wouldn't seem all that appealing. With it, something naturally unpleasant, like sticking a needle in your arm, can become something a person would die for. The really sad trick of it is that the needle shooter really isn't getting any more overall pleasure than he would have gotten if he'd never used it. He has to think, and understand himself to have any chance of escaping this rut. A monkey in his situation will simply die.

No, I don't think just "experience" is good enough for an intelligent creature like us. We need to reason too. We know that if we have a response to something, good or bad, there's a reason for it. We're trainable through a reward system. We know from science that chemistry has a lot to do with it. There's no sense in ignoring this. We can train ourselves to enjoy those things which increase our security and health, even if they seem to go against our instincts. Our cognitive capabilities are tied in with this system, and can modify it. With more knowledge of how it works, we can be more effective. That what makes intelligence so great!

[jules]

ah ... I get a different slant on what you are saying  

I completely agree on the matter of food. One way or another we can lose touch with what our body tells us about what we should put in our mouths but if you get back to a helathy diet after eating a fair amount of junk, it suddenly all makes sense.

Interestingly, in Australia, we are in the midst of a junk food debate. A recent study has shown that, contrary to popular belief, our children are not exercising less and hence, the weight problems are directly a product of poor diet. It's been very obvious here that many junk food companies have backed healthy exercise programs giving them an image of social responsibility whereas what they are really doing is taking the heat off themselves by trying to make exercise the issue. There is considerable pressure here to remove junk food adds from TV particularly when kids are viewing. [Of course the adds are aimed at kids persuading their parents to buy junk for them and this is also pretty devoius].

As far as your general point about dopamine goes I sort of agree but the issue is similar to the food example in that first we change our behaviour to something that works better and from that the dopamine [if you choose to look at it this way] follows.

I most certainly do not believe that experience alone is all we need. What concerns me about behaviour in your country and mine post 9/11 is that we have become more inward looking in so many ways. Instead of getting out and rubbing shoulders with people who have different views to our own we are living in monocultural communities, making our McMansions into castles with our entertainment provided at home thanks to our Home Theatre. One thing should be evident from what we know from past experience about dealing with threat. If you hide away, the problem becomes worse. If you face it, it becomes manageable.

edit: hmmm ... I fear this has absolutely nothing to do with gratification or music. Maybe others will get the ship back on track.

jules

[lonewolfny42]

Interestingly, in Australia, we are in the midst of a junk food debate. A recent study has shown that, contrary to popular belief, our children are not exercising less and hence, the weight problems are directly a product of poor diet...

Same debate rages in the U.S...

see soda story....[/list:u]

And another

point of view....[/list:u]

...making our McMansions into castles with our entertainment provided at home thanks to our Home Theatre.

[/list:u]

And computers, and stereo's....and IPod's.[/list:u]

[timbley]

As far as your general point about dopamine goes I sort of agree but the issue is similar to the food example in that first we change our behaviour to something that works better and from that the dopamine [if you choose to look at it this way] follows.
 ...

I agree. For me to get started on changing a habit, it helps to have some understanding that the dopamine, or other chemicals, or new learned neuron path ways, or whatever, will indeed follow, and that I'm going to be happy. Trying to understand my own reaction to changing a habit, I feel it comes down to fear, fear that I'm going to forever lower my level of satisfaction in life by changing things. I have to understand that the satisfaction is not as directly attached to the item as I perceive it to be.

About getting out and rubbing elbows, I think this can be a problem for some hi-fi music lovers, like myself. I have a tendency to become a hermit, skilled at relaxing and being happy alone, especially when I've got a good hi-fi system and an endless supply of music to listen to. The cat's a good friend, but there's no comparison to human interaction. A lack of social skills puts a lid on many opportunities for personal growth.
I'm working on it.

Speaking of being solitary, I did some reading on Supermax prisons like the one that Moussaoui is slated to spend the rest of his life in, almost entirely alone in a concrete cell, with no view of anything green or lovely. Whatever interaction he gets with the guards will not be pleasant. It looks an ungodly horrible fate.

[timbley]

I somewhat agree with the link to the alternate point of view. Measures that are seen as punitive will create a backlash. People who feel they've had something forcibly taken from them will want it more than ever. But still, the soda pop should be removed from the schools under the correct pretext. Failing to provide something is not the same as taking away the right to use it. The schools are not obligated to provide soda pop, or a venue for soda pop sales. As long as everyone understands it that way removing it should go smoothly and be accepted by most everyone except the soda pop industry.

[jules]

extraordinarily honest and humane of you Mr. Timbley!

At least as far as the music goes, I've made a particular effort  in the last few years to get out and got to live performances when they happen. Here, that might mean travelling a few hundred kilometres to the nearest big city but it's never disappointing. Sometimes I've done it on my own, sometimes with my partner or others. I stay anywhere from backpackers places to topline hotels and eat everything from simple, authentic asian food to that available in the best restaurants. I love cities and I love where I live in the country.

jules