The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?

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Aether Audio

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The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« on: 6 May 2006, 04:25 am »
Friends,

Our AC comrade "Bica" has been so bold as to claim the Timepiece 2.1 is more "transparent" than the renown Quad ESL57.  Even though he owns both and has had extensive experience in audio as well as in time spent comparing each, that is still quite a declaration.  Undoubtedly it borders on the unbelievable for many.  Although one can not prove anything with measurements to those that would dismiss them, there are those that understand that high fidelity is not a matter of magic and pixey dust.  For those of the later persuasion we off the following:



Note the 35dB span in magnitude of this waterfall graph.  John Atkinson of Stereophile cuts his plots off such that there is only a total possible display of 24dB.  We're revealing over 10dB more information down into the noise floor/hash/distortion than he does.  Above and beyond any of the following graphs, this waterfall response reveals why the Timepiece as well as all the other Millennial Reference Series products reproduce music with such accuracy and realism.

Do you see any little "mountain ranges" of delayed energy eminating from the system within the first 1.5 mS?  No? Notice how far the magnitude drops before you see anything resembling such.  The first peak of any kind is out past 1.5mS and is centered at 1.5kHz.  Yet, it is over 20 dB down in level!  Friends, loudspeakers just don't get much better than this - regardless of price or design or manufacturer.  Bring on your ribbons and electrostatic panels boys...let's see their waterfall plots!

The graph is sloping upwards because the sweep rate required to reveal such time dependant anomolies does not allow sufficient dwell time for the analyzer input filter to receive the full energy at lower frequencies.  This is a function of the measurement process - not the speaker.  The more you know about time, the less you know about frequency - the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle at work here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

And for those that may squawk about the smoothing - if you've ever tested speakers, you'd know why we use it.  Without some smoothing of the graph you'd see nothing but "grass" in place of a line for a trace.  You can't make out what you're looking at unless you smooth it out of the response.

OK, let's look at Group-Delay.  It's easier to understand than Phase.



Moving vertically on the graph above the horizontal axis line that reads "zero," energy is arriveing later in time.  We say that "zero-line" represents the point of no propagation delay in the transmission of the signal.  Another way of looking at it is to say the zero-line is "now" and anything arriving above that line is behind "now" - in a sense the energy is running late getting to us.  The higher on the graph a certain frequency is, the later it will arrive behind those closer or at the zero-line.  The amount of delay is designated in milliseconds.

As we can see, the lower frequencies progressively arrive later in time above the high frequencies.  Above 2kHz all enegy appears to arrive together at the same moment in time.  As we can see, the Timepiece 2.1 does not provide perfectly constant signal delay characteristics.  Low frequencies below 2kHz arrive later in time than those above.  But the amount of delay is what is significant here.  Other than the lack of absolute perfection, this is exemplary performance.  At 1kHz the signal delay is approx. 500 microseconds.  A 1kHz wavelength is approx. 1 foot in length so therefore, it takes approx. 1 millisecond (1,000 microseconds) to propagate to begin with.  

The upshot is that energy at 1kHz is delayed by 1/2 cycle of the waveform.  As the frequency decreases below 1kHz, the signal delay does not increase significantly above that at the 1kHz level.  Yet, the wavelengths at decreasing frequencies are getting progrssively longer.  This means the percentage of delay per wave cycle is decreasing as well.  The significance in all this is that the total average delay is only about 500 microseconds and occurs at relaively low frequencies.  

Over-all it represents a very small level of impact on the quality of reproduced sound as the frequency of the signal delay "step" is well below the realm of frequencies wherein the wavelengths are relatively short and the ear is most sensitive - i.e., the region between 3kHz and 5kHz.  It would be interesting to know just how many systems are designed to cross over in that frequency range.  Now you know another reason why so many speaker systems sound more alike than not!  Crossing over anywhere near 3kHz is not a good idea if you're concerned about signal delay effects.

Then finally we have the good 'ol frequency response graphs.  




Don't pay much mind to how flat this pair is, even though they're exceptionally flat.  More important...compare one graph to the other.  Sorry, my system can't print out overlays.  I can see 'em - just can't print 'em.  Still, if you go back and forth between #1 and #2 you're likely to accuse me of just making a photocopy.  If you look closely though you can see where they differ by a tad in the size of one ripple compared to the same ripple in the other graph.  This is what makes for good imaging/soudstage - matching L/R frequency response - not time-domain/phase response!!!  Don't let the "first order network" guys fool ya!  It has NOTHING to do with linear phase response.  Linear phase (or lack thereof) affects transient response - and rumor has it we kick butt there too.  In fact, some say the best they've ever heard.  But who can say? :wink:

Well, that wraps up this little dissertation.  Hope it helps.  At least now some of the claims may be more believable for some of you.  Does all this mean the Timepiece is a "Quad killer"...maybe...maybe not.  But it does suggest you may have good reason to wonder. :o  

Just remember:  The more you know, the better we sound!

-Bob :mrgreen:

bhobba

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Re: The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #1 on: 6 May 2006, 04:51 am »
Quote from: SP Pres
Our AC comrade "Bica" has been so bold as to claim the Timepiece 2.1 is more "transparent" than the renown Quad ESL57.  Even though he owns both and has had extensive experience in audio as well as in time spent comparing each, that is still quite a declaration.  Undoubtedly it borders on the unbelievable for many.

I am not so sure of that Bob - for me it may have an element of truth.  Prior to purchasing my current speakers, AXIS LS88's, I compared them to Quads because the sales guy said they were close in the midrange - he owned Quads - and was surprised how close they were.  I was skeptical but they stood up very well.  The quads were better, and clearly so, but there was not a lot in it to my ears.

I have thought on this over the years and one idea I had is perhaps dynamics also enter into the equation.  Quads are known to not like loud volumes or dynamic peaks.  What do others think?

Looking forward to when I can get my timepieces delivered - my financial issues are progressing - but slowly.

Thanks
Bill

Double Ugly

The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #2 on: 6 May 2006, 11:51 am »
Irrelevant to everyone but me -

Bob, might those measurements have come from the last pair of 2.1s still in your possession...the ones headed to Mississippi next week?

Thanks.

Aether Audio

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The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #3 on: 6 May 2006, 02:38 pm »
Double Ugly,


Quote
Bob, might those measurements have come from the last pair of 2.1s still in your possession...the ones headed to Mississippi next week?


They "might."  :mrgreen:

-Bob

Double Ugly

The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #4 on: 6 May 2006, 02:48 pm »
Thanks!  :D

BrunoB

Re: The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #5 on: 6 May 2006, 03:35 pm »
Quote from: SP Pres
Bring on your ribbons and electrostatic panels boys...let's see their waterfall plots!


Shouldn't you waterfall plot start at 0.0 ms instead of 2.930 ms?  It makes it more difficult to interpret the time scale.  Correct me if  I am wrong, but it seems that your tweeter  is much slower than a ribbon tweeter.

Bruno

Aether Audio

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The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #6 on: 6 May 2006, 08:54 pm »
BrunoB,

Welcome! - and thanks for asking,  If you do the math you'll find that 2.93mS is the amount of time sound takes to propagate through 1 meter of space.  Since I took the measurement at 1 meter, that is the amount of recveive delay needed to align the analyzer's tracking filter to the exact moment when the signal arrives at the microphone.  To set the receive delay at "zero" would mean we'd end up looking at the "noise" occuring before the signal from the speaker ever reached the mic.  We're not interested in what happens before the speaker responds to the stimulus - only what happens after.  Sorry for the confusion but the software doesn't permit resetting the display to read "zero" in place of the actual receive delay setting.

As far as "speed" goes...the actual term I believe you are referring to is system "rise time."  Across all disciplines of engineering the concept remains constant.  

As an example, we see rise time referred to when we discuss amplifiers.  Rise time is defined as the amount of time it takes for a system's output to respond to a step level change at its input.  Further definition is that the rise time of a system is the amount of time the output takes to change between 10% and 90% of the total step change observed at the output.  In the case of amplifiers, a "square wave" that has it's rise time being at least 10 times the anticipated rise time of system under test, is used as the stimulus signal.

So what's the point?  It is common knowledge that rise time and it's mirror-image twin "slew rate," directly relate to the large signal bandwidth of the system under test.  If the system has a fast rise time, it will also have a fast slew rate.  If essentially either of these are the case then the system will have a wide bandwidth - at least with regard to its high frrequency performance.  Rise time/slew rate won't tell you much about low frequency performance though.  The amount of "flatness" at the top and/or bottom of the step level change will indicate low frequency performance.

Anyway...if rise time/slew rate equates to high frequency extension - then the inverse is true.  A system that exhibits a large signal frequency response the extends to relatively high frequencies, will also have a fast rise time/slew rate.  The key here is that for the two to equate, the signal must be relatively large with regards to the system's maximum level output.  Small signal analysis may or may not directly translate and is relatively useless in this regard.

So, the upshot is that the higher the large signal frequency response of a system, the faster its rise time/slew rate.  Therefore, a simple large signal frequency response plot and the upper frequency limit of a system is a good indication of its rise time/slew rate.  In all actuality, there is a formula that one can use to directly transform one into the other.  Sorry, I don't remember the exact specifics of what that formula is right now and I don't have time to look it up.  But if you're interested, any good electrical engineering textbook will have it.

Finally, in light of the above all you need to do is look at the frequency extension of the Timepiece 2.1 in the above frequency response plots.  There you will see that the response is scarcely down -1.5dB at 24kHz from the nominal output below that frequency.  Actually, according to ScanSpeak's data the tweeter is only down about -3db at 30 kHz, but my system can't measure out that far.  It's not hard to believe though seeing that the output is only down -1.5dB at 24kHz.  

Now, the graphs above were taken at the 1 watt level, so that's not really a large signal test.  I can honestly tell you though that I've done large signal frequency response tests in the past and the extension to 24kHz does not drop off.  I didn't actually run the test to find out rise time though.  Instead, high power frequency response graphs are very useful for determining the onset of dynamic compression.  If the frequency response drops down at some frequency below what it is at low drive levels, that frequency range is experiencing dynamic compression.  I'm far more interested in that than rise time.  Oh and by the way,  our stuff exhibits exceptioal performance on that test too! :D

The upshot of all of this is that there are many ribbon tweeters as well as electrostatic panels that won't come near reaching 30kHz.  In fact, I've recently measured a highly respected ribbon that barely reaches 20kHz and drops off like a rock above that.

So I guess I would say that the science tells the story here.  The Timepiece as well as all of our Millennial Reference Series speakers exhibit the same extension to at least 30kHz.  That directly translates to a very fast rise time/slew rate - faster than many ribbons and faster than most electrostats.

Although it is a personal belief based on a fair amount od supporting data, I subscribe to the idea that  the "speed" that many assign to ribbons/electrostats, etc., is more a function of harmonic and/or IM (mostly harmonic though) distortion products between about 8kHz and 20kHz being produced by these devices, that "fools" the listener into believing the system is very "fast."  Take those artifacts away and away goes all the claims of such "speed" as well.

But what do I know? :wink:  Hope this helps.

-Bob :D

bhobba

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The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #7 on: 6 May 2006, 11:50 pm »
Quote from: SP Pres
Although it is a personal belief based on a fair amount od supporting data, I subscribe to the idea that the "speed" that many assign to ribbons/electrostats, etc., is more a function of harmonic and/or IM (mostly harmonic though) distortion products between about 8kHz and 20kHz being produced by these devices, that "fools" the listener into believing the system is very "fast." Take those artifacts away and away goes all the claims of such "speed" as well.

I never thought of that Bob.  But after thinking on it the evdence for that view may now be comming from many sources - eg  
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/Testing/Tweeter4/tweeter4index.htm
'What to make of the ow2's mediocre nonlinear distortion performance?  Well, think about this. Perceived detail and "air" can occur for a number of reasons.  Good off axis performance can do this. Good linear distortion performance can do this. But modest amounts of higher order nonlinear distortion can also increase apparent detail. In this fashion, I suppose the ow2 is the winner. But only in the sense that "it gives you all the detail that's in the recording, and then some..."  Anyway, I find the nonlinear performance disappointing for the ow2.'

And yet the Hiquphon is generally considered to be one of the best domes you can buy.  Similar comments can be made about the Seas Millenium.  

The same can not be said of the 9300 you chose:
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/Testing/Tweeter2/scan_speak_9300_and_9700.htm.

And if true that makes the Timepieces true giant killers - not just amongst the best in the world, but, perhaps, along with its millenium reference series cousins, sitting at the top.  That would be uncomfortable for other speaker manufacturers - but a bargan for the buyer.

Just out of curiosity any reason why you chose the 9300 over the 9500 or 9700?

Thanks
Bill

JoshK

The TP 2.1 more "transparent" than Quad ESL57?
« Reply #8 on: 7 May 2006, 12:35 am »
Very good points Bob and Bill in your last couple of points.  I happen to believe that this is right.    Very interesting stuff!