The VPI HW-19 Mark III

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #60 on:** 26 Sep 2006, 11:38 pm »

MAN! Now your tweakin'!

I love this stuff

Can you give us a link for Tower that shows the silicone dampning solutions?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #61 on:** 27 Sep 2006, 02:33 am »

L2T,

Weird, that link I did yesterday worked yesterday....hmmmmmmm.

Try this, go to www.towerhobbies.com

Type in 'silicone' as your search. Then choose 'Mugen' as your manufacturer. It should take you to a page with 10 or so different viscosities of silicone to choose from from Mugen. I bought 30 and 50,000 cst as it seems to be most recommended.

I'm in California - it'll never go to waste. I'll just give some to the neighbors wives if their tops get saggy

Quote from: Listens2tubes on 26 Sep 2006, 11:38 pm

MAN! Now your tweakin'! I love this stuff Can you give us a link for Tower that shows the silicone dampning solutions?

jpv · « **Reply #62 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 06:18 pm »

The Tufoil website has a bunch of diff. treatments. That on do you use, engine, motorcycle?
My bearing is not completely sealed on the bottom. While it doesn't drip anything I did set the plinth on a pillow and it left a red stain. Will the Tufoil leak out?

What are the thoughts on the Mark3 vs the scout platter as an upgrade?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #63 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 06:32 pm »

Yeah, it'll leak...but I suspect any liquid would. You have a VPI HW-19 or something else...my bearing well is definitely sealed it seems. Nothing leaks now in use.

I think the Scout platter is $300.00 upgrade. It's no heavier, but quieter due to the invenrted bearing. But, the Tufoil probably takes care of a lot of that chatter/rumble from standard Mark III bearing. So, I think that's mostly $300.00 wasted.

The step to $600.00 or $700.00 for the heavier platter of the Mark IV would seem to bring more pleasure for the money. I'm not sure if that platter then allows you to use VPI's ring clamp or not...can't quite figure that out.

Then again, for $999.00 (or $899.00 at Elusive Disc) you can get SDS speed control that would help the overall presenatation, too.

So many options...all you need is mucho dinero.

Quote from: jpv on 28 Sep 2006, 06:18 pm

The Tufoil website has a bunch of diff. treatments. That on do you use, engine, motorcycle?
My bearing is not completely sealed on the bottom. While it doesn't drip anything I did set the plinth on a pillow and it left a red stain. Will the Tufoil leak out?

What are the thoughts on the Mark3 vs the scout platter as an upgrade?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #64 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 06:38 pm »

ooops, sorry, didn't answer your other question.

I have been buying this one since 1990 for my cars:

http://www.tufoil.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=CARS8OZ&reference=/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dall%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3Dconsumer/SearchResult.html%26category%3DCARS

I don't know what's different about them vs. marine/motorcycle/industrial use. I'd guess they are all about the same and differnt only in container sizes (smallest for Motorcycle, largest for industrial). You pay less per oz as you buy more ounces....as old a marketing concept as there ever was

Wayner · « **Reply #65 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 08:47 pm »

Jpv,

I think the Tufoil is a copolymer which likes to creep and bond with its self and everything else. If you spill a drop, the next day the drop is the size of a silver dollar.

W

jpv · « **Reply #66 on:** 28 Sep 2006, 11:59 pm »

CG,
I have a HW-19 Jr. The bottom of the well the bearing goes into looks like it is plastic. The oil in there now doesn't leak out now.
I don't know what they used back then but I was told by VPI to replace it with Lithium grease.
I have the std platter to the jr and was wondering if the mk3 or the scout platter was the best upgrade. I have the VPI PLC
John

jpv · « **Reply #67 on:** 29 Sep 2006, 12:27 am »

Here are three photos of my DIY sama and sand box. It's really easy to make and its cheap. I kept the wood base and put on tip toes the raise the height. The puck sit in some PVC filled with sand. The PCV was screwed down to the wood platform to keep them in place. The two PVC parts are threaded so I can level the plinth. This is by far the best mod I have done .

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #68 on:** 29 Sep 2006, 05:34 am »

jpv,

My HW-19 manual (next to last page, I think) states 40 weight motor oil, Slick 50 preferred, as the choice in the bearing well and for the motor (a drop in the shaft) to keep it well lubricated. No mention of lithium grease.

My preference is Tufoil...VPI may not know of them and recommended the more commercialized Slick 50 stuff. I've been told that Slick 50 is not as slippery as Tufoil and also that part of Prolong's (andother better distributed, more commercialized formulation is actually purchased from Tufoil (no basis in fact to my knowledge, just rumor).

jpv · « **Reply #69 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 am »

Chairguy,
I just found the manual for my HW-19 jr. They said in it they used Molybdenum sulfite grease in the well.
Will the Tufoil/slick 50 be OK to use as a substitute? I have never change the grease in it - bad me.
JPV

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #70 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 03:14 am »

Quote from: jpv on 20 Oct 2006, 02:10 am

Chairguy,
I just found the manual for my HW-19 jr. They said in it they used Molybdenum sulfite grease in the well.
Will the Tufoil/slick 50 be OK to use as a substitute? I have never change the grease in it - bad me.
JPV

Interesting....my manual for the HW-19 Mk. III is brand new....VPI was kind enough to send me one (gratis - great customer service!) and it makes mention of Tufoil, in particular. Are the bearing assemblies in the two models different, or the same

....I'm not that familiar with the Jr. model.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine that Tufoil would harm it any....it's just super slippery stuff that reduces friction - something every TT owner wants more (or less) of

. The difference is often astounding - depending on make and what you had in there to begin with. An inky black silence oftens occurs afterwards.

Slick 50 is NOT Tufoil, however. I've use both in my car's crankcase. I noticed little or no benefit to Slick 50 in either gas mileage, engine responsiveness or operating temps (via dashboard gauge), but notice EACH time benefits when using Tufoil (in 3 cars now over 15 years). Mileage increases about 5%, engine is truly a bit livelier (turbocharged in particular as with my SAAB 9-3) and operating temps are lower. These three differences tell me Tufoil really does reduce, dramatically, friction while Slick 50 is kinda' marginal.

Nonetheless, our own Wayner, claims great benefit from Slick 50...who am I to argue? I just can't vouch for it myself...I CAN wholeheartedly vouch for Tufoil, however

I think if that table is more than a few years old, and you've spun quite few records, any change of lubrication of an slippery sort might be an upgrade.

Wayner · « **Reply #71 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 11:52 am »

I like Slick 50. I do not know where to get Tufoil, if TCG knows, give it up! The Slick 50 indorsement is due to the fact that it beat hands down 3-in-one oil that I was using before Slick 50 was suggested. It is some slippery stuff! aa

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #72 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 01:08 pm »

I haven't seen Tufoil in a store for 10+ years now....it's fairly widely available online, tho. From the manufacturer, it's about $17.00 delivered with shipping.

http://www.tufoil.com/consumer/buynow.html

How much additional benefit you'll received by going to Tufoil from Slick 50 may or may not be sizable....as earlier mentioned, the difference is noticed in my vehicles (incidentally, ditto for 'Prolong' and 'Greased Lighting' - they are simply not the same as Tufoil)

BobM · « **Reply #73 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 02:49 pm »

Slightly different direction - but I have a MK III platter on my DIY Aries clone. I would certainly like to upgrade to a MK IV if the sonic difference is noticeable, and not just a pretty picture of a massive platter.

I understand the new platters with the inverted bearing are definitely better, but fairly costly too.

Is a move to a MK IV worth it, or should I just go for the new platter and bearing. Any used ones for sale anywhere.

Thanks,
Bob

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #74 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 04:39 pm »

Beats me, Bob....an SDS speed controller is about the same price as going to the heavier Mark IV platter with inverted bearing.....and thicker armboard (to compensate for the thicker platter). You're talking $2000.00 new for all...gulp.

Gotta' tell you - I have a $50 JVC direct driver with 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay (sorbothane mat, home brew silicone damping trough, and a layer of SoundCoat damping compound on the underside of the platter) that currently outperforms my VPI HW-19 Mark III.

I have another ebay score of a higher line JVC direct driver coming in this week (paid $100 - teehee)....with a larger, heavier platter, and better tonearm with built in adjustable oil damping just to see how far a direct driver can go.

My own opinion (let's not wade too far into controversy fella's - I'm just stating my humble opinion based on experience

) is that at under $1000.00 a big quality JVC, Denon or Technics deck can't be beat by belt drivers of similar money. But with tight speed control, tighter tolerance main bearing and arms (as well as more rigid carbon and magnesium designs), better tonearm/lead wiring (especially one length from cartridge clips to rca leads like on the Rega's) and mass loading (10 lb + platters)...a belt driver is better, overall, as it's motor is inherently not intimately connected with the platter by anything but a belt (or thread). But, it takes somewhere around $2000.00+ to better a very good direct driver...but it CAN be done at that level of expenditure.

For new tables...the Technics SL-1210M5G with all the KAB upgrades would seem to be the best performing value TT on the market, most things considered, under $2000.00 or so. I just hate manual tables, myself

The Music Hall MMF-9, with added speed controller, would seem (on paper, at least) to be the near equal of it in superior belt drive configuration...but at close $2000.00 new. It's got an inverted ceramic main bearing, heavy platter, de-coupled 50Hz motor and a heavy platter with a carbon fibre arm. It's $1700 with hi output Goldring cartridge mounted and aligned already on it - outboard speed control is another couple hundred. The VPI Scout is probably a close second to that one in value - but outboard speed control is $1000.00 for it. They may well be better than the Technics...but only with speed control.

I think the key difference is speed control. If I was to upgrade the VPI (which is in doubt), I'd do the SDS first; heavier platter after. Tufoil or similar slippery substance will bring you inverted bearing level of performance anyhow, or thereabouts, in terms of lower drag.

Did you use a VPI motor for your DIY Aries? Then do the SDS, first, and pur some Tufoil in that main bearing well for your next $1000.00 splurge.

jpv · « **Reply #75 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 11:57 pm »

The bearing assenblys are the same for all hw-19's but mine is really old so it may be different or VPI just didn't use tufoil back then.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #76 on:** 21 Oct 2006, 04:49 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 20 Oct 2006, 04:39 pm

The Music Hall MMF-9, with added speed controller, would seem (on paper, at least) to be the near equal of it in superior belt drive configuration...but at close $2000.00 new. It's got an inverted ceramic main bearing, heavy platter, de-coupled 50Hz motor and a heavy platter with a carbon fibre arm. It's $1700 with hi output Goldring cartridge mounted and aligned already on it - outboard speed control is another couple hundred. The VPI Scout is probably a close second to that one in value - but outboard speed control is $1000.00 for it. They may well be better than the Technics...but only with speed control.

Read here, young padwan, and tell us which TTs Alex is speaking of in this thread!

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1069168134&

You'll get there...some sunny day!!!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #77 on:** 22 Oct 2006, 02:56 am »

I'm pretty much there...but ya' can't reduce the fact that a motor sits right under the platter and arm in a direct drive.....versus semi-detached in a belt driver and therefore better isolated by design. But it takes a lot of $$$ for a belt driver to overcome a direct drive unit, even fully tricked out, and that may be a place of rather diminishing returns.

I bought a new, higher line JVC turntable off of ebay the other day...with built-in oil adjustable oil damping (within the tonearm), a higher quality tonearm, a much heavier and larger diameter platter and better construction...with an FG Servo motor and all the goodies that Matshushita, Inc company can offer in direct drive.

And with that I'm actually going to see how far the direct drive envelope can reach...stay tuned

By the way I implemented the SAMA this weekend to my VPI...set it up level, made sure all the cartridge geometries were right, completely cleaned out the main bearing well (I hadn't done that when bought) and added Tufoil back in. Basically, everthing that can be done was to get the most out of this table.

And....it still fell short of the (TCG modded) $50 ebay direct driver. Again, I think the difference is speed control...without it (VPI), the vitality and drive of the music is lost - it just kinda' plods along in comparison. With it (the JVC and it's direct drive and FG Servo motor...with good isolation), the notes and music just leap out at you and small adjustments to platter mat, VTA, damping, vinyl quality are more noticeable.

Anyhow - that's my story and I'm sticking to it....a fairly inexpensive JVC direct driver (talk about cheap arm....it's barely a step up from plastic, btw; the new table has a better constructed arm a la the Technics 1200) that was maybe $200.00 new in 1980 properly implemented with internal damping, good feet, silicone bath beats a VPI table that was $1200 new circa 1995 or so.

It's was certainly a revelatory finding to me - believe me, I went into it with objectivity in mind

Wayner · « **Reply #78 on:** 22 Oct 2006, 12:07 pm »

John, TCG,

Check out the latest edition of Steropile magazine. The Well Tempered turnatble and tone arm are discussed and the tone arm has a rigidly mounted paddle floating in a bath of "honey" like fluid!

You devil, you. aa

W

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #79 on:** 22 Oct 2006, 03:34 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 22 Oct 2006, 02:56 am

Again, I think the difference is speed control...without it (VPI), the vitality and drive of the music is lost - it just kinda' plods along in comparison. With it (the JVC and it's direct drive and FG Servo motor...with good isolation), the notes and music just leap out at you and small adjustments to platter mat, VTA, damping, vinyl quality are more noticeable.

That's exactly where it's at--speed control/stylus drag. Once you get a hold of a beefy surplus power supply from eBay you're going to go into warp drive. With my KAB power supply any small change in AC/DC power cord, power filtration, cones, etc. can be clearly noticed. I use cryo'ed power cords in my 1200's power supply. When I switched from Kevin's 24ga DC cord to my homemade 18 ga solid core copper that was a MAJOR improvement. The same went for Silclear silver paste.

My 1200 sits on a Moca wood board ( and Goldmund cones instead of stock feet ) with a 18" by 18" rubber/cork/rubber slab under. You see those little 2" by 2" rubber/cork/rubber footers Mapleshade & others sell 4 for some $25 or so? You can get the 18" x 18" I use for about $30. This rubber/cork slab sits on a granite slab. The whole thing is air suspended by three Dennensen air suspensions. Imagine...

If you do your listening tests with virgin vinyl reissues of my music you're up for a real advanced lesson on stylus drag issues.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220032815316&rd=1&rd=1

This eBay seller carries them reissues at decent prices, packs well and is reliable.

http://stores.ebay.com/wdcdradio_Latin_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZQ2d1QQfsubZ12QQftidZ2QQtZkm

I highly recommend Ray Barreto, Willie Colón, Larry Harlow & the Palmieri brothers.