[TheChairGuy]

Incredibly, dcbingman's TT arrived in one day from St. Louis today.  It beat the just-ordered Shure Tracking Force guage by a day...and that's only coming from 60 miles.  So, right now I'm guessing VTF by ear...not really a great way to do it.

This line has been disco'ed by VPI fairly recently, but as many examples exist out there, it's worth reviewing here as I 'discover' it's virtues.  Even new, this near 50 lb'er was $1200 without arm....by weight, pretty much the champion for a US made table.  Those overseas, it's a great table, but you might have better exchange rates/values buying another brand of table locally.

I bought my pristine rendition for $700.00...with upgraded Rega 250 arm.  So, it's all well within budget for me (bonus and partnership profits are scrace now, when they tend to be plentiful for the ChairGuy, as I have my money tied up in Wal-mart and BJ's Wholesale inventory right now).  It's not a  bad place to have it, but it's not in my pocket - the safest place for it.  So, I'm unusually pinched, when I am ordinarily flush, this time of year. Typically, I have a feast for 4 months, starve for 4 and skate by for 4 months....such is the life of a ChairGuy.

These are the 4 tables I've owned in the past 25 years:

JVC JLA-20 (belt drive) with Grace F9e (packed with 15 lbs of Mortite, it played pretty good for this then teenager).

Townshend Rock Mark II, Helius Silver Tonearm and modded Grado.  Fantastic bass - has put every CD player to shame.  Unfortunately, I sold it after only a year as I was squandering money back then.

Thorens TD-316 and Shure V15. (the latest and last one).  I never could get it to sing...still don't know why; lord knows I tried.

JVC ql-A2 (direct drive) with AT440ml or Ortofon X5-MC or vdh tipped Sumiko Blue Point.  Speed regulation is soooo important...while overall enjoyment wasn't equal to my belt drive JVC TT 20 years earlier; there was something extremely addictive to quartz locked speed regulation.  I think direct drive is lacking that supremely quiet noise floor due to it's inherent design, but speed regulation is fantastic.  Every belt driver could probably benefit from speed regulation....and a heavy mass platter for flywheel effect.

I'll add to my notes as I learn about the VPI.....anything any of you guys can add that'll add to my enjoyment will be much appreciated  

[TheChairGuy]

I'm still setting up this TT, but I have to put my plug in for VPI's customer service.

The HW-19 came sans owners manual, so I called VPI today hoping I could buy one from them.  As this model was disco'ed a couple years ago, they didn't have many around any more.  But, they sent one out to me - for gratis.  There are reprints out there for $9.95 I know, but I wanted an original printed one - and had expected to pay something for it. Major kudo's for their service...they could have easily (and rightfully) charged my $10.00 or more for this.

I spoke to a tech named Mike. The platter has a noticable 'wobble' when turning.  It spun forever without a belt attached, so I knew it wasn't anything serious, but I wanted it fixed.  Mike gave me a very simple fix to re-orient the spindle to the platter and reduce or eliminate the visual wobble.  I'd say I dialed it in to 25% of the former wobble...enough so that I'm fine with it now.

The upgrade path is mightly appealling on this machine.  For $300.00, you can buy the Scout bearing and platter....it is the same size and weight as current, but is quieter.  For $600, you can get the oversized platter (a la Scoutmaster) and inverted bearing.....adding considerable quietness, and notable mass (primarily noticed in bass) to the set-up.  The oversized platter also allows you add a VPI  Peripheral Outer Ring (another $600) - akin to a vacuum hold down system without the drawbacks.  This makes for every album to be near ruler flat during playback - greatly enhancing tracking.  It also adds mass to the outermost portion of the platter - again, increasing bass weight.  

If you add a SAMA (stand alone motor assembly - $400),  you essentially have the performance of a SuperScoutmaster...which I think retail for $3000.00 without arm  

Those are some gaudy numbers to chew over...I think I'll just enjoy this for awhile  

[woodsyi]

Oh, oh.  I think somebody is on the precipice looking down at a very slippery slope!  Somebody grab him before he leans too far.      

[TheChairGuy]

It'll take $1600.00 more to get it to that level of performance...not something I'm itchin' to do right now.

DPTCG (Dirt Poor TheChairGuy)  

[woodsyi]

Hey there TCG,

I got a killer cartridge for your new TT.  Check it out.

http://www.higherfi.com/KoetzuBullet_web.jpg

I believe the cartridge needs reloading after use.  

[mcrespo71]

   

That was great woodsyi!

[OTL]

You'd better stock up on drive belts.  I don't know anywhere on the planet where you can get belt for an HW other than VPI.

BTW, the upgraded platter on my HW Jr. has a wobble too  

[TheChairGuy]

You'd better stock up on drive belts.  I don't know anywhere on the planet where you can get belt for an HW other than VPI.

BTW, the upgraded platter on my HW Jr. has a wobble too  

I read somewhere that if you put the VPI belt (ostensibly anybody's too, I guess) in to boiling water for 10 seconds it will shrink the belt tighter so you'll get a little more use from it. Mine's a little loose, so I'm going to try it soon.

I didn't look that hard for a belt source, but found one quickly in Elusive Disc (an authorized reseller of VPI): http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HW-2016

Doesn't that wobble suck?  It can't be any good for tracking purposes however slight.  There is a way of getting it pretty level tho.....

Take the platter off the plinth (removing the belt, of course).  Turn the platter upside down with the topside of the spindle into a soft carpet. Push the platter down (with a bit of force) until the (removeable) spindle pops out. Clean the hole it just popped from to make sure grit hasn't made it's way in there.

Put the spindle back on the platter softly (it won't be fully seated) and place back on plinth (without belt on).

Turn the platter to see the wobble if it's still there.  Rock the platter upward while holding the spindle to adjust the wobble by eye.  Once you're satisfied that it's as good as it's going to get, place your clamp (I assume you have one) and tighten down on the spindle to lock it down in place.

That's how I got mine about 75% better than the way I received it.

I think the upgraded platter on your HW Jr. is the same as my platter on the HW-19 Mark III  

[TheChairGuy]

Well, I'm finally dialing in this TT now, I think.

I got my Shure SFG-2 today and I was guessing tracking force a bit too high. With dcbingaman's help I figured out how to use the Expressimo VTA adjuster. Getting a belt driver level using a spirit level and getting the azimuth and overhang has always, to me, been far more beneficial than twiddling with VTA.  And so it was on the HW-19, also.  And, all three cartridges I own are extreme elliptical (read as pain-in-the-arse) shaped styli...either line contact, Gyger or van den hul (nuthin' more tweaky than a 2 x 70 micron shape on the vdh - friggin' miniscule).

As I had with the JVC when I first got it, I was having some tracking problems...even with the champion tracker, the AT440ML.  I thought the cartridge wire might be bunched up in the arm...but that didn't seem to be the issue. It was just mistracking (skipping, stylus getting stuck, etc)more than it should....and, frankly, I thought the sound was no more weightly and alluring then my (heavily, but simply, modded) $50 JVC.

I recently removed my van Alstine Longhorn from my 3 cartridges as the VPI used a large clamp (it would bump into the clamp before the side ended - eech). I decided to re-attach it to my vdh retipped Blue Point tonite and remove the clamp when playing.

Seamless, absolutely friggin' seamless tracking and stellar presentation    Bass that sounds taut, as if a $600 platter upgrade happened, and a sharper, more dynamic, less distorted performance, with improved piano pitch and decay and a better sense of acoustical space all around.  A serious improvement for just about nil.

Lionel Ritchie never sounded so good (no laughing fella's - I like the album - and it's fun dancing with my 2 year old to it) and a re-play of Franz Schubert Symphony No. 9, which sounded quite horrible 2 days ago, was vastly  improved.  I suspect it's all about less distortion as every facet of the presentation has improved.  All the midrange musicality of vinyl is enhanced, and the transients and attack (dynamics) are now more CD-like.  

I never found a clamp to do anything noticeably good...you won't miss it when you mount the Longhorn.

It's so easy to do and it requires no soldering (I didn't and don't).  Just use a 1.5" long non-magnetic piece of brass or copper (I use three snips of 13ga. solid core magent wire) and some gooey/gummmy/tacky stuff like blutak, quakehold or similar to place your longhorn on the front of the body of the cartridge.  Go look thru the 'Longhorn Modification Really Works' topic that ran a couple months back her on The Vinyl Circle.

The benefit seems more substantial on the VPI than the JVC ever was (it was a pleasant, but not astounding, upgrade there).  The positive effects appear to be greatly enhanced in better vinyl systems...or at least in this one. Up untul tonite I wondered why I paid $700 for something that wasn't any more enjoyable (overall) than my $50 JVC....NOW, I hear the differnes between the two.  

I have to again thank Frank van Alstine for this great gift.  He vastly improved a $700 (used) VPI and $300 cartridge today.  The Longhorn mod should be standard issue on every cartridge made - damn the stupid looks. It's an astoundingly effective tweek and I don't know if I can use another cartridge again without it  

[OTL]

Do ya think that the Longhorn might be the reason that Clearaudio carts choose this shape..... http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/clearaudio/images/sigmawood.jpg

Makes ya wonder...

Listen, share and enjoy.

OTL

[OTL]

Welcome to the world of VPI.  Harry W. truly hears, understands and mystically translates his ears into his hardware.

Such a shame that the view of "newer is better" squashed the HW line.  But, such is life.  

The HW's are truly one of the most under-appreciated components ever produced.  Tweakable, musical, full range and responsive.  Capable of crushing a CD in a single bound.  Consider yourself lucky you've obtained one at a very reasonable price.  Your journey has only just begun.

Please wipe that silly grin off your face!

Listen, share and enjoy.

OTL

[TheChairGuy]

My HW-19 Mark III is 12+ years old - so said previous owner and confirmed by VPI the other day.

The newer HW-19's, Mark II and IV, shipped without the spring suspension.....some kind of sorbothane puck instead.  I think it shipped with the little cheap rubber feet, but newer Scout and Aries ship with cone feet you can buy for $79.99/4.

Before I dove in for $80.00+, I wanted to see for myself re-configuring.  So, in place of the rubber feet I placed a Herbie's Tenderfoot at each corner....with a cork rounder on the bottom for a little different type of isolation.

In place of the springs, I had a four stout 2.5" long brass flathead screws, nuts and washers that fit perfectly into the mounting holes where the springs were mounted.  To the top of each screw, I put some cork again...for isolation and so that it didn't scratch the neat underside.

Well, it didn't take but 5 seconds of Sting's 'They Dance Alone' (so haunting, from ...Nothing Like the Sun) to notice a major difference.  Gone was an exaggerated sense of plush (that all too reminder me of my too soft Thorens years ago) and in it's place was taut bass, firm images and a major reduction in 'chatter' that was drawing my attention away from the music. Surprisingly, it's also much, much, much quieter...the fades are beautiful and the new cut comes up from a well of near total silence.  I hadn't at all expected that  

Another unexpected benefit is that it tracks better.  The Rega's are unipivot and they apparently work best on solid, non-suspended decks - not surprisingly, like Rega P2,3,25,7 and 9 TT's.  And so it seems as there is no skipping tonite as there was too frequently the past few days.  The Longhorn mod helped a ot yesterday, the change out of the spring seems to have ended it.

So, I'm not sure this is the optimum setup for the rig, but ditchin' the spring suspension was a large step in the right direction for the VPI - major, in fact in some ways.  It is mimicing, in all the positive ways, that of CD playback...yet keeping that analog liquidity and flow that only a good TT can provide.  There seems to be good reason why VPI ditched the springs in place of a more solid mount for the plinth.

If you have a HW, you can't go wrong with replacing the springs with 4 x 2.5" brass screws/nuts/washers and a package of self stick cork rounds down at your local Hardware store.  It'll be a well spent $6.00 I think  

In fact, until 20 minutes ago using this substitution, I didn't think the $700.00 spent was a great investment...it was sounding only a bit better than my old (not terribly loved) Thorens and about on par with my modded $50 JVC Direct Driver (maybe a tad better in a few ways).  

NOW, I know this is a stellar table and why the turntable freaks worship Harry Weisfeld.  It's very good, very tweekable and upgradeable, built very well and a terrific value  

[avahifi]

Again, I would like to remind you all that I wrote to John Grado and sent him all the info on the Longhorn upgrade, and all I got back was a terse reply saying "not interested".

How about all of you that knows how well this mechanical engineering improvment makes bombarding Grado Labs and ask "how come you are not interested"?  Seems sooooo stupid to me that they are not.

Frank Van Alstine

[TheChairGuy]

Frank,

One day I'll try a Grado and then bombard him.  To no avail, I'd think...don't know why, tho.

Pride goeth where truth should reside  

[TheChairGuy]

Well, I'm not sure if the 12 year old + example of a Mark III has an extra loud motor, or they tend to wear out...but, this motor was spewing all sorts of energy back into the plinth.  That of course means it was making it's way into the music.

I'd estimate the current plinth at about 10-12 lbs - decent for this level of cost.  But, the plinths on even the new Scout seems heavier; the Scout Master more so, of course.

Taking out and applying about 3 lbs of Plast-i-Clay to the underside of the plinth (you can't even see it as there is a steel overhangs that obscure it) eradicated a lot of the energy backing it's way into the plinth from the motor.

This little $7.00 add-on finally brought the table up to standards that I am comfortable with.  Before application, it was just barely better than the old JVC..it's now leagues better.  I can actually fathom the possibility of living with this table a long time, and looking at platter/bearing and Stand-Alone-Motor-Assembly (SAMA) as not far fetched in the future.  

I still think speed regulation is also necessary....but the current playback is really good and enjoyable.

So, there you go tweekers...go buy a Mark III for well under $1000.00 and:

1.  Do the van Alstine Longhorn mod to your cartridge (ditch the VPI clamp....it doesn't do nearly as much beneficial as the Longhorn mod does).

2.  Ditch the springs and, less important, replace the cheap rubber feat with something like cones or squishy domes/squares of some sort

3.  Add about 3 lbs of Plasti-i-Clay to the underside of the plinth (and on the armboard) liberally.

I'm looking at a good 2" thick maple butcher block, too....I am pretty sure the current pine board I'm using is providing no favors for sound.  The dang TT is so large tho, that it didn't fit on my goodly sized granite cutting board  

The total takes but very little in outlay, but the benefits are high. Finally, this table is really cranking out tunes.  Grover Washington Jr/Winelight has never sounded this good in my home  

[TheChairGuy]

Addendum:

So, there you go tweekers...go buy a Mark III for well under $1000.00 and:

1. Do the van Alstine Longhorn mod to your cartridge (ditch the VPI clamp....it doesn't do nearly as much beneficial as the Longhorn mod does).

2. Ditch the springs and, less important, replace the cheap rubber feat with something like cones or squishy domes/squares of some sort

3. Add about 3 lbs of Plasti-i-Clay to the underside of the plinth (and on the armboard) liberally.

4. Go to your local hardware store and purchase a $0.99 rool of plumbers teflon tape.  Wrap 3 concentric circles/spots on the tonearm and on the counterweight (4 total).  Re-balance your arm, of course, afterwards. Mine's a Rega RB250 and Expressimo counterweight  

Gargantuan improvement for nearly nothing.  This motor spews a whole lotta' energy back into the plinth and it very clearly makes it's way into the tonearm.  The tonearm buzzes in my hand when I hold it and the motor is on.  This little tweek reduced it to very feeble. The entire sound took on a more relaxed and natural state.

It got rid of the vestige of the presentation that was just hurting me to listen (it was just a bit irritating)....before this, I had to still give the edge to my CD playback.  You just know something is wrong if it's easier to listen long periods of time to a CD than your vinyl set-up  

[ohenry]

Hi TCG,
It's good to hear that you finally got a "real" turntable (just kidding!).

Anyway, that motor vibration issue doesn't seem normal as my old HW19 doesn't shake and shimmy like that.  I hope that isn't a preview of further motor issues for you.

BTW, the springs aren't good for any environments that I've encountered.  I'll try the plasticlay under the plinth, and investigate some squishy feetses.     I'll have to wait until the ringing from Johnny Winter's Friday night show subsides though.

Thanks for the tips...

[OTL]

Believe it or not, I still have an unopened Sumiko Survial Kit!  Honestly, just never took the time to experiment.  Silly me!

[TheChairGuy]

Hi TCG,
It's good to hear that you finally got a "real" turntable (just kidding!).

Anyway, that motor vibration issue doesn't seem normal as my old HW19 doesn't shake and shimmy like that.  I hope that isn't a preview of further motor issues for you.

BTW, the springs aren't good for any environments that I've encountered.  I'll try the plasticlay under the plinth, and investigate some squishy feetses.     I'll have to wait until the ringing from Johnny Winter's Friday night show subsides though.

Thanks for the tips...

Hey Henry,

I missed your post until today - sorry.

I kinda' thought that VPI wouldn't engineer a motor that shaked and baked so bad...it really is intrusive.  'dcbingaman' - you really should have made full disclosure of this before I plunked down my $700.00 with ya'    

I still wouldn't have considered it a horrible deal at $700.00, but it would have been nice to know it beforehand    

So my choice now is to buy a new (attached) motor to replace current at probably $100-200.00...or go whole hog and do the SAMA at $400. 00.  

Ouch.

[TheChairGuy]

Note to self: never evalutate a new table with a new phono cartridge. You can't really differentiate where the problems stems if both are new.....turns out the motor is shot (the seller, dcbingaman, worked out an equitable financial solution with me recently - kudo's to him   ) AND the cartridge was not near broken in until recently.  I estimate it took 50 hours for it to settle in....now it sounds delicious  

The Mark III came in a day after a newly re-tipped Sumiko Blue Point from Van den Hul (a lovely boron beauty, it looks like).  Interestingly, Mr. vdH clipped about half of the old aluminum tubed Sumiko cantilever...and inserted the new vdH boron jobbie inside it.  Must save him a bit of time that way...perhaps that's why it only cost me a little over $300 from Klaus/Odyssey Audio.

Klaus really has some great deals in cartridges from time to time...I think the same time I bought mine, he has low output, vdH re-tipped Koetsu's and Lyra's for $800 or something. It's worth calling him to find out before you plunk down on your next Moving Coil - I know I will.

I expect things should improve further with a new motor or SAMA soon....there is a very pronounced hum that traces back to the motor now.

NOW I know what you VPI guys 'glow' about...it's one damn fine table for the money - the best I've owned (notably also, the most expensive at $700 with re-wired Rega 250 tonearm)