QW information requested

psgary · « **on:** 30 Apr 2006, 11:38 pm »

The day is rapidly approaching for my QWs to arrive. I wondered how much run-in time most owners found necessary until their Salks started to bloom. It would be great if some QW owners chimed in. Naturally, it can take dozens, if not hundreds, of hours for equipment to be fully ready, but I was wondering when the first hints started. Has anyone heard good stuff right out of the box?

Thanks for any information.

Gary

DMurphy · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 May 2006, 01:13 pm »

Hi Gary Let me start an argument here. I am very suspicious of phenomena that (1) I haven't experienced, (2) have not been subject to any meaningful testing, and (3) for which proponents have not offered any theoretical basis. This is particularly ture of "break-in" for electronic components, but is also true in large part for speakers. As for electronics, unless you really think electrons learn on the go, I'm not sure what physical property in resistors, caps, transistors, or IC's could undergo molecular change through use. Maybe there's a theory, but it hasn't been, to the best of my knowledge, articulated to date. As for individual drivers, surrounds can change through flexing, and for woofers that will change the TS parameters a little, which can affect box tuning. But other than surrounds, everything is pretty much set by the parameter trade-offs the driver designer has chosen. In any event, I have never heard a speaker system I have designed change with use, other than a small change in the midbass due to surround flexing. I think it is much more likely that it is the listener who is breaking in. After all, when you first fire up a speaker, you will almost certainly hear sound you are not used to, since no two speakers are alike. As you adjust to the sound, it's quite possible you will think the speaker has changed. It's much more likely that it's the listener who has changed. I would be willing to bet that the QW's your getting will sound the same in 3 months if you could do a comparo using a time machine.

avahifi · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 May 2006, 01:53 pm »

I absolutely agree with Dennis.

Frank Van Alstine

DSK · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 May 2006, 02:59 pm »

Quote from: DMurphy

I would be willing to bet that the QW's your getting will sound the same in 3 months if you could do a comparo using a time machine. ...

Dennis, I'm afraid that wouldn't be possible in 3 months ...those dang time machines take at least 6 months of 24/7 to break-in.

brj · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 May 2006, 03:46 pm »

I will say that the TC Sounds woofer on my Salk HT3s definitely loosened up in a very "non-subtle" manner. I thought that the "impressive bass" of the HT3s was an exaggeration until about the 3rd day of playing the radio continuously through the system. At that time, I heard the bass kick in from another room in my house, and quickly moved into my living room to play a few favorite tracks. I no longer have any concerns about the bass from the HT3s....

As for electronic break-in, the most persistant explanation I've seen is that certain types of plastic based dielectrics can change over time - perhaps in response to current flow. Thus, certain capacitors and cabling could conceivably change their sound over time as well. To be honest, I find the degree of vitriol usually seen in this particular debate off-putting enough that I've never researched the issue to the point of a personal conclusion, and I (thankfully) haven't yet gone through enough gear to buildup sufficient first hand observations.

(That said, I have heard distinct differences when trying various speaker cables in different systems, but the first order effects of matching a cable's RLC properties to a given system seem sufficient to explain that in my own mind.)

Good luck to anyone that wants to punch this particular tar-baby!

texas steve · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 May 2006, 04:13 pm »

Quote from: psgary

The day is rapidly approaching for my QWs to arrive. I wondered how much run-in time most owners found necessary until their Salks started to bloom. It would be great if some QW owners chimed in. Naturally, it can take dozens, if not hundreds, of hours for equipment to be fully ready, but I was wondering when the first hints started. Has anyone heard good stuff right out of the box?

Thanks for any information.

Gary

Gary, what are "QW"s??

brj · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 May 2006, 04:17 pm »

Quote from: texas steve

Gary, what are "QW"s??

It is a floorstanding 2 way speaker.

DMurphy · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 May 2006, 04:39 pm »

Quote from: brj

I will say that the TC Sounds woofer on my Salk HT3s definitely loosened up in a very "non-subtle" manner.

Hi that's quite possible. At least here we are dealing with mechanical forces and there is a plausible explanation. I think I heard a similar major change on a pair of Dynaudio Germini's. I can't speak to the capacitor point you raise--prhaps Frank can. And--if your reading this Frank, is there any useful distinction between changes after, say, an amplifier is warmed up, and longer run changes? I know the FTC's power output rating rule requires that amps be "preconditioned" for an hour at 1/8th power to "stabilize" the unit. Is this based on firm science? And if so, could whatever forces that are work there also produce other changes over the long haul? Thanks.

avahifi · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 May 2006, 06:24 pm »

Nah, just forming up some of the bigger capacitors to full charge and getting things in marginally stable equipment to thermal equaliberm, some leakage currents before then and a bit of DC in the wrong places. I suppose some older electrlytic speaker crossover capacitors would have a long form up time too, but hopefully those are all gone in modern designs.

Frank

psgary · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 May 2006, 12:30 am »

I appreciate what everyone has noted so far.

Dennis, as you know, there is this ongoing debate about break in with audio equipment. I agree with you in many ways. So far I have yet to hear a component that didn't sound good initially improve to the point where it was finally tolerable. I either like something initially or I don't. My current speakers, Clements 206di, sounded good literally right out of the box.

Others, however, report different experiences regarding break in, and among those are some audiophiles I really respect. Thus, it is difficult for me to completely dismiss it.

I did notice an interesting phenomenon with the little Sonic Impact T-amp that I bought around Christmas. For the price it sounded very good initially, but the sound only qualified it as an "in a pinch" piece, something to be used on the road, for example. However, after about 150 hours of break in, during which I didn't listen to the amp, the sound definitely improved. It got so good that it rivaled "serious" amps I have. I didn't really have any time to adjust to the sound of the amp and yet it improved dramatically. That had been told to me, but I was a bit skeptical. After the many hours of break in, though, it was hard to argue with.

I don't attempt to explain such things. Electical engineers scoff at the idea of break in (and many at differences in cables). My only yardstick is my ears, and I trust them implicitly. If they like something, so do I.

I have great respect for your speaker designs from your reputation and if you say they don't need any break in, great! I'm not a patient man sonically,anyway. So when the QWs are uncrated, I look forward to some good sound - right out of the box again.