28B SST

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caleb

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28B SST
« on: 13 Apr 2006, 02:41 pm »
I rang our local distributor this morning to ask if there was any news about this new amp.

He didn't know when it was due to be released or what a price indication would be.
Come on James - spill the beans - when are you going to get this into the shops and what price are we going to look at?

Thanks
CBW

James Tanner

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28B SST
« Reply #1 on: 13 Apr 2006, 04:15 pm »
Hi CBW,

Hoping to release the 28B SST in May. Will be about $6800 each US Funds.

JAMES

PavelL

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Re: 28B SST
« Reply #2 on: 14 Apr 2006, 07:04 pm »
Quote from: caleb
I rang our local distributor this morning to ask if there was any news about this new amp.

He didn't know when it was due to be released or what a price indication would be.
Come on James - spill the beans - when are you going to get this into the shops and what price are we going to look at?

Thanks
CBW

Hi there! I believe you have B&W 802Ds. Seems like biamping is the way to go with B&Ws... Did you try 4 7B SSTs? Just curious...

caleb

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28B SST
« Reply #3 on: 21 Apr 2006, 11:47 am »
Hi pavelL,
Yes I have B&W 802s at the front (and back) with a HTM2 centre.

The 7B SST run the 802s beutifully and with high volumes, although they do get a bit warm doing it.

The reason for a change to the 28B SST is that I want to change to the 800Ds which will take a bit more driving.

nicolasb

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Re: 28B SST
« Reply #4 on: 24 Apr 2006, 09:18 am »
Quote from: PavelL
you have B&W 802Ds. Seems like biamping is the way to go with B&Ws... Did you try 4 7B SSTs? Just curious...

I can't speak from personal experience, but I know of more than one person who has found that bi-amping B&W speakers makes virtually no difference to the sound at all, while upgrading to a more powerful single amp makes a big difference, especially to bass control.

Which is the more useful varies greatly from speaker to speaker, and it depends where the problems are coming from. If the problem is that the different speaker elements aren't sufficiently isolated from one another, then bi- or tri-amping is helpful. If the problem is that the bass drivers are sucking up so much current they aren't being properly controlled then a more powerful amp is required.

PavelL

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28B SST
« Reply #5 on: 24 Apr 2006, 09:42 am »
Do you mean biamping with lesser amps makes no difference? B&W 800 series manual warns against biamping with less powerful amps. BUT Bryston 7B SST can by no means be considered a "lesser amp".... By the way, Nicolasb, you might want to edit some of your previous posts... I don't know what to think now that I've read quite opposite opinions... Anyway, thanks for your insight.

nicolasb

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28B SST
« Reply #6 on: 24 Apr 2006, 04:51 pm »
Quote from: PavelL
Do you mean biamping with lesser amps makes no difference? B&W 800 series manual warns against biamping with less powerful amps. BUT Bryston 7B SST can by no means be considered a "lesser amp".... By the way, Nicolasb, you might want to edit some of your previous posts... I don't know what to think now that I've read quite opposite opinions... Anyway, thanks for your insight.

To take a practical example: let's suppose you are driving some 802D speakers with a single 4B-SST amp. To get an improvement you might consider two options.

Option A: replace your single 4B-SST amp with a single 14B-SST amp.

Option B: buy a second 4B-SST and bi-amp.

Experience suggests that, for B&W speakers, option A is likely to produce a tangible improvement to sound quality, while option B isn't.

However, this is not necessarily the case for all speakers.

PavelL

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28B SST
« Reply #7 on: 24 Apr 2006, 05:17 pm »
O.K. Let us just say that B&W's requirement of 50 W/channel mininum is rather misleading. They should at least be more specific.  After all how can we use their speakers without amplification?!?!? Abbey Roads has those sp. biamplified. Same at B&W's own demo rooms.  :?:

nicolasb

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28B SST
« Reply #8 on: 25 Apr 2006, 12:15 pm »
Quote from: PavelL
O.K. Let us just say that B&W's requirement of 50 W/channel mininum is rather misleading. They should at least be more specific.  After all how can we use their speakers without amplification?!?!? Abbey Roads has those sp. biamplified. Same at B&W's own demo rooms.  :?:

You're missing the point.

B&W speakers bi-amped with two amps of model X will sound better than they would with all of the drivers being powered from just one model X amp. The point is that this fact is totally irrelevant to anyone other than a hi-fi store or a multi-millionaire.

You must never, never, never, never ask the question "will my system sound better if I buy this?" Instead you must ask the question "of all of the thousands of things I could buy with this amount of money, which one will give me the biggest improvement in sound quality?"

Typically with B&W speakers, switching from one lower powered amp to two lower-powered amps (bi-amped) will sound better - but it will only be a small improvement. Switching from one lower-powered amp to one higher-powered amp will give you a larger improvement.

This is not necessarily true of other speakers, of course.

James Tanner

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« Reply #9 on: 25 Apr 2006, 12:34 pm »
I would agree with 'nicolasb' - the higher powered amp usually provides a greater improvement.

What is not understood with these passive bi-amp and tri-amp options is that the PASSIVE crossover is the controlling factor. Using 2 lower powered amps does not really provide anymore power/quality loudspeaker drive capability because of the the passive crossover. Many loudspeaker manufacturers will admit that the bi-amp tri-amp options available on most speakers have much more to do with marketing than science.

That being said I can see a situation where you may prefer a specific amplifiers sound on the tweeter section of your speaker. Also if you have an amplifier already and it is not cost effective to sell it, purchasing a second amp to improve performance does make sense.

What I find in my setups is that whatever lower powered amp I am using on the speaker I move to the tweeter and use an amplifier of twice that power on the woofer. (important point - amplifiers must have the same GAIN). I find for instance that the new 2B SST on the tweeter and the 3B SST on the woofer in a 2-way passive bi-amp situation sounds great.


james

guest2521

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28B SST
« Reply #10 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:01 pm »
That may be true in general however it is not the case with PMC MB2s triamped with 3bs v monoblocked with 7bs - the former sounded light years ahead. (thought I opted to go for triamped 7bs and 4bs of course ;) )

I recently upgraded to pmc mb2 xbd active.

Jason Nugent

28B SST
« Reply #11 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:06 pm »
It seems this thread has turned into a discussion about biamplification.  If I may ask a question for my specific instance - I'm going to be using two channels of my 9B SST to bi amp my AB2S-C centre channel.  The plan is to run a "Y" XLR cable from my SP2 to two channels of the 9B.  I'd then connect these two channels of the 9B to the terminals on the AB2S-C.  

I'm unsure as to how, exactly, this connection is made.  Both channels of the 9B will be receiving the exact same signal, so I'm not using a crossover.  Do I run the speaker wires to the same terminal on the AB2? Do I run them to each driver seperately and remove the bridge on the speaker terminals?  I don't want to wire this up incorrectly and damage the speaker or the amp.

It's time like this when I wish the 9B was bridgable, like the new 875 is.  Either that, or that I had a 6B SST instead of a 4B SST for my front channels.  Ah well.

Jason

Jason Nugent

28B SST
« Reply #12 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:13 pm »
Actually, i think I spoke too soon.  I found a review on the Bryston website that said that there is a "bridging option available" with an accessory cable.  

http://www.bryston.ca/reviews/9bsst/studio9b.html

James, what sort of cable is this?  This sounds like the solution to my wierd question.

PavelL

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28B SST
« Reply #13 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:15 pm »
Quote from: nicolasb
You're missing the point.



O.K. Someone IS missing the point/could be me :) /. My understanding is that in a PARALLEL crossover config. speak. drivers with it's crossovers will be completely isolated from one another. In B&W case mids with highs can be isolated from the bass drivers. And biamping - passive biamping - WILL make the speaker's load on an amp MUCH lighter. This can improve the amplifier’s ability to "deliver the signal to the speaker". So the question is: if an amp does not clip at my listening levels and if I do not need my speakers to go any louder what will improve the sound the most? Woofers will definately need a more powerful amp if someone wants to go LOUDER. In fact, class D might be the way to go with low frequencies. Or 28B SST. But anyway what do I know? I've not tried it - guys I talked to /who have Bryston gear throughout/ say no audible difference if 7B or 4b drives the lows when biamping /again in an average room - no stadium/. BUT biamping /with quite powerful 4 b/ DOES  make a difference. James, thank you for your comments. Thank you "nicolasb" for your thoughts too.  Like you said last time 802D might be the way to go :D

James Tanner

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« Reply #14 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:29 pm »
Quote from: Jason Nugent
It seems this thread has turned into a discussion about biamplification.  If I may ask a question for my specific instance - I'm going to be using two channels of my 9B SST to bi amp my AB2S-C centre channel.  The plan is to run a "Y" XLR cable from my SP2 to two channels of the 9B.  I'd then connect these two channels of the 9B to the terminals on the AB2S-C.  

I'm unsure as to how, exactly, this connection is made.  Both channels of the 9B will be receiving the exact same signal, so I'm not using a cro ...



Jason,

Do NOT connect both channels to the same pair of 5-way speaker binding post.
DO remove the bridging clip on the speaker and run one set of speaker cables to the woofer and one set of cables to the tweeter on the AB2.

james

Jason Nugent

28B SST
« Reply #15 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:33 pm »
Quote from: James Tanner
Jason,

Do NOT connect both channels to the same pair of 5-way speaker binding post.
DO remove the bridging clip on the speaker and run one set of speaker cables to the woofer and one set of cables to the tweeter on the AB2.

james


Thanks, James.   Is this the way bridging is normally done with the 9B?

James Tanner

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« Reply #16 on: 25 Apr 2006, 02:52 pm »
Hi Jason,

The bridging on the 9B is done with a special cable we can make for you.

We do not recommend bridging the 9B into less than an 8 ohm load though so your original idea of using a Y cable and running one channel to the tweeter and one channel to the woofer on your AB2 Center may be the better option.

james

Jason Nugent

28B SST
« Reply #17 on: 25 Apr 2006, 03:11 pm »
Thanks again, James.  So, there's no problem with sending each driver a full-range signal?  I've been doing some reading, and the general recommendation for bi amplification is that the signal is initially split into its HF and LF components with an external electronic crossover, since you're bypassing the speaker's own crossover.    In my case, I'd be taking the centre channel signal from the SP2 and sending it "full range" to both drivers.  

I wouldn't want to adversely affect sound quality by sending a signal to a driver that it has no hope of reproducing well.

James Tanner

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« Reply #18 on: 25 Apr 2006, 03:19 pm »
Hi Jason,

That's correct - both drivers get the full range signal and the internal PASSIVE crossover in the speaker directs the appropriate frequency response to each driver.

You CANNOT bypass the crossover in the AB2 so the use of an external electronic crossover is not possible.

james

nicolasb

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28B SST
« Reply #19 on: 25 Apr 2006, 04:35 pm »
Quote from: PavelL
O.K. Someone IS missing the point/could be me :) /. My understanding is that in a PARALLEL crossover config. speak. drivers with it's crossovers will be completely isolated from one another. In B&W case mids with highs can be isolated from the bass drivers.

That's correct as far as it goes.

Quote
And biamping - passive biamping - WILL make the speaker's load on an amp MUCH lighter.

That's generally not correct.

The current that the drivers suck out of the amplifier is highly asymmetric. Most of it is drawn by the bass drivers.

Suppose we're driving the speaker with a 200W amp. The bass driver will typically be sucking up about 150W, and the treble and midrange will be using about 50 between them. If you bi-amp with a pair of 200W amps, the treble and midrange have now got 200W to play with, but that's far more power than they would ever actually need. The bass drivers, on the other hand, have only gone from 150W to 200W - not a noticeable difference.

By contrast, if you use a single 400W amp, that might be split 300/100 in favour of the bass drivers, so both sets of drivers now have twice as much power to play with as they had before, and both will sound better - particularly the bass.

It is possible for treble/mid quality to improve when bi-amping, if the bass driver is thrashing a single amp so badly that even the treble and midrange part of the signal gets distorted by lack of current as well. But this is quite unusual. And, even if that does happen, you aren't helping the quality of the bass by bi-amping: that will still clip, and still sound terrible.

In cases where bi-amping does help significantly (such as the PMC speakers biovizier mentions) you're solving a different problem. With B&W speakers the main problem you have to solve is usually "can we supply enough current, especially to the bass drivers?" Giving them enough current tightens up the bass and makes it sound better controlled, while also allowing the treble and midrange free rein. The limit on the sound quality in the PMC case is "can we stop the inadequately damped bass drivers from overshooting and shoving back emf across the treble and midrange drivers?" The best way to do that is to electrically isolate the treble and midrange drivers from the bass.

Which strategy is the better one varies from speaker to speaker. If the limit on sound quality is a lack of current, then you need a bigger amp, and bi-amping with two smaller ones won't help as much. If the limit on sound quality is a lack of isolation between the bass and the treble/mid drivers, then bi- or tri-amping will be more useful.

Clearly, if you have money to burn, then bi-amping with 28B-SST amps will sound better than single-amping with 28B-SST but the difference (on B&W speakers) will be small. And, in the majority of cases, it's better to use a single large amp than two smaller ones. As James T says, you can sometimes get good results using a large amp for the bass drivers and a smaller one for the treble and mid, but that's not something I'd advise you to mess with unless you really know what you're doing!

The one case where bi- or tri-amping really sounds good is when you can actively bi-amp, i.e. when the amplifiers are in between the cross-over and the drivers, rather than in between the source and the cross-over. But obviously a speaker has to be specially designed to allow you to do that. (The original B&W Nautilus speakers, for example, have an external cross-over, and require four monoblock power amps per speaker).