AVA and Bulter amp hybrids

Nick B · « **on:** 12 Apr 2006, 09:01 pm »

I've been looking at both the AVA and Butler hybrid amps. Currently, I have a passive preamp. Apparently the Butler amps prefer 3 v in and 1-5k impedance from the preamp. Does the AVA have similar voltage and impedance requirements? Also, the Butler tubes rarely/never require replacement. I know tubes for the AVA amp are also rarely replaced. I presume this is simply a byproduct of running at very low voltages. Sorry for the simplistic questions. I am not very technically inclined. Any comments would be appreciated Thanks

Parnelli777 · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Apr 2006, 11:43 pm »

Regardless of claims, I'd be hard pressed to spend $1100 over the AVA 550 for the Butler. BTW, I don't own either one.

The upcoming review of the AVA stuff will be interesting.

warnerwh · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Apr 2006, 01:07 am »

The input impedance of Frank's amps make them extremely easy to drive with any preamplifier.

Why do you say the Butler amps require 1-5k impedance from the preamp? Are you referring to ouput impedance? If so this is very strange. What is the input impedance of the Butlers?

I know someone with an AVA that also heard the Butler in his own system and still has the AVA. The Butler actually just uses tubes as an output buffer if my understanding is correct. The Butler is basically and SS amp though.

The AVA Fetvalve amps use tubes in the input stage. Tubes are more desireable here as they can do a better job than transistors. For the money the AVA's have to be the better amps.

The tube replacement between either amp is a non issue. The tubes cost so little money it shouldn't be a consideration. If you can afford one of these amps you can afford 30 bucks for tubes occasionally.

TomW16 · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Apr 2006, 02:14 am »

I use an AVA 350 EXR amp with a passive pre and it works very well. I believe that the input impedance of the amp is 1 Mega Ohm so a passive preamp plays well with this amp.

I believe that the tubes last a long time but even when it comes time to replace them, they are very inexpensive as warnerwh mentioned.

Frank Van Alstine offers an in-home audition period if you are seriously considering one. I don't think that he gets too many returned.

Tom

zybar · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Apr 2006, 03:01 am »

Quote from: Nick B

I've been looking at both the AVA and Butler hybrid amps. Currently, I have a passive preamp. Apparently the Butler amps prefer 3 v in and 1-5k impedance from the preamp. Does the AVA have similar voltage and impedance requirements? Also, the Butler tubes rarely/never require replacement. I know tubes for the AVA amp are also rarely replaced. I presume this is simply a byproduct of running at very low voltages. Sorry for the simplistic questions. I am not very technically inclined. Any comments would be appreciated Thanks

Might be better to post outside the AVA circle if you are asking for comparisons.

I am not so sure about the claim about Butlet amps wanting 3volt input and 1-5K preamp impedance.

I have heard a pair of Butler amps and was quite impressed with them. I haven't heard the AVA amps in a setting I am familiar with.

George

gongos · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Apr 2006, 03:21 am »

I was the one that hosted the Fet-Vavle 550/Butler shootout. The Butler was one of the 5 channel hybrids, not the 2 channel, which might make a difference. I suspect it's just more of the same. We both thought the AVA was clearly better. I didn't even think it was close. More dynamic, balanced, detailed, etc, etc. The AVA outdueled the Butler on every front. MCA posted the Butle for sale on Audiogon a hour after he left my place.

I think Warner's correct when he points out how the tubes are used differntly in each amp. The AVA has a much lighter presentation especially when paired with my RM2's--the Butler was a little like a mud bog.

I'm actually selling the amp do to financial reasons if you're interested. Here's a link:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1149791415

Nick B · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Apr 2006, 05:05 am »

Thanks for the responses. I read a lot of the posts on these two amps, but must have missed the one about the shootout. I like the idea of a design that allows long tube wear, so I appreciate the clarification about how the tubes in each are used differently. I had tube amps years ago and don't really want to deal with the heat and biasing again. The AVA seems like it will mate well with most anything including my current passive preamp. Next time I'll post comparisons in another circle. No disrespect was intended toward Frank.

TjMV3 · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Apr 2006, 04:30 pm »

I have the Butler TDB 2250-slightly warm, smooth, tuneful, void of any harshness or fatigue inducing nasties. A very pleasant amp to listen to.
Great amp!

Mud bog?

I don't know about that.

Haven't heard the 550.

But from what I hear, the AVA 550 is also a great amp.

A friend of mine did a comparison and he said he barely noticed any difference, except, if I remember correctly, he said the Butler 2250 was a tad toward the warm side, compared to the 550......but smooth. The 550 more neutral. But this wasn't a huge difference at all. We're talking teeny-weeny differences.

FYI, the Butler amps can be found for less than the MSRP on the website.

ajzepp · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Apr 2006, 10:28 pm »

Quote from: TjMV3

I have the Butler TDB 2250-slightly warm, smooth, tuneful, void of any harshness or fatigue inducing nasties. A very pleasant amp to listen to.
Great amp!

Mud bog? I don't know about that.

Haven't heard the 550.

But from what I hear, the AVA 550 is also a great amp.

A friend of mine did a comparison and he said he barely noticed any difference, except, if I remember correctly, he said the Butler 2250 was a tad toward the warm side, compared to the 550......but smooth ...

I was trying to resist the urge to chime in earlier, but since you posted this I'll go ahead and say it....lol

I have absolutely no doubt that Frank's stuff is kick ass. The only reason I went with the Butler was because of the situation that was presented to me....too good to pass up. But I've been listening to some Oasis monoblock amps lately (powering the very same spekers that I now own) which will probably out-gun both the Butler and the AVA amps - they're 20k each! That being said, the Butler gets me pretty damn close to that performance. It's very hard for me to believe that the Butler 5150 (which is the amp I have now) was just swept off the stage by the AVA. And that is NOT a knock at all. But if you look around and read the feedback of people who either own or have reviewed the Butler stuff, they will tell you that it pretty much can handle itself not just at its price point, but upwards quite a way from there. I am sure the AVA Fet Valve is right there with it, and I'm sure that there are people who prefer it to the Butler. For all I know, I would have kept the AVA over the Butler, too. But it's just hard for me to imagine anything in it's price class just beating it up 'in every way' or whatever....

That being said, I can't wait to see what Frank's Ultra DAC and whatever preamp he recommends to me in a couple months do with this amp.....it's going to be a thing of beauty....I can feel it

TjMV3 · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Apr 2006, 10:41 pm »

Of course, ajzepp. Those were ridiculous claims.

Hey, I'm not saying the TDB 2250 is the best amp in the world. Of course it's not. Nor is there a such thing as the best amp in the world.

It's all a matter of personal preference. As long as am amp is designed well (as AVA amps are), it mostly comes down to personal taste and preference.

Not ever has my TDB 2250 sounded "muddy" or like a " mud bog".

These Butler amps are real nice. They are a quality amp.

Although I will admit I'm not sure what a mud bog sounds like..lol

Not ever have I heard anyone say or describe the Butler amps as muddy.

I also find it hard to believe it was trounced in every area. Sounds goofy.....if you ask me.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Apr 2006, 11:32 pm »

Quote

Although I will admit I'm not sure what a mud bog sounds like..lol

[/list:u]

warnerwh · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 Apr 2006, 02:42 am »

I will have a 550 EXR here and will be able to compare it to another hybrid I have. The one I like better will stay. I bought gongos' amp from him as he couldn't really afford it. This after I'd recommended him trying it even though I hadn't heard it myself with Vmps speakers. He has been very happy and if money were no issue he'd keep it. Now he's trying to find something affordable he can live with.

I had him describe the sound to me on the phone a couple of days ago just to make sure I want to try it because what I have now is outstanding. I know that after gongos and Mike had the shootout that Mike also described the "very clean and natural sound". They were both very impressed.

Mike did like his Butler enough though that after he sold is 5 channel Butler he bought another one only 2 channel so he obviously is very happy with the Butler sound. He did originally want the AVA 550 though but found a 2 channel Butler at a very good price.

The bottom line will always be what sounds best to you in your room/system. Frank has been doing this a very long time. My father was and two of my best friends are engineers. One consistency between them is that they claim experience plays a huge role in engineering, at least in their opinions and they're all quite bright people. I know when I have a new doctor for some reason I don't want some kid that's only been out of med school a couple of years either. Maybe I'm weird but that's just me.

I'm looking very forward to getting the 550 next week. The only downside I can think of with this amp is that I can't change the power cord to one that costs a few hundred dollars

TjMV3 · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Apr 2006, 02:54 am »

I never questioned the AVA 550 amp at all. I have nothing but respect for Frank and the gear he designs and makes.

I've heard nothing but good things about it. Nor would I ever question Frank's experience and knowledge. I'd be an idiot to do so. I could live to three hundred years old and I still wouldn't know one quarter of what Frank knows.

My only point of contention was the comment about the Butler sounding like mud bog. I feel that's highly inaccurate and misleading.

The Butlers are real nice amps, too.

ajzepp · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Apr 2006, 03:21 am »

Quote from: TjMV3

I never questioned the AVA 550 amp at all. I have nothing but respect for Frank and the gear he designs and makes.

I've heard nothing but good things about it. Nor would I ever question Frank's experience and knowledge. I'd be an idiot to do so. I could live to three hundred years old and I still wouldn't know one quarter of what Frank knows.

My only point of contention was the comment about the Butler sounding like mud bog. I feel that's highly inaccurate and misleading.

The Butlers are real nice amps, too.

Exactly....I'm active on several forums, and ever since learning about Frank's stuff and hearing some feedback on his gear from people I've come to respect, I have mentioned both his Fet Valve and Omegastar amps when I've been asked for suggestions. I'll continue to do so, too, cause the fact is that I love the way people like Frank do business. I love products that offer superior value for your dollar, and as I said above, now that I have the foundation of my upgrades in place I can't wait to start focusing on a DAC and 2-channel preamp. I just wanted to stand up for the Butler a little too, not just cause I own one, but because it's anything but a slouch.

I'd be thrilled to have either amp in my system....I'm just thankful that I'm "in the know" when it comes to some of the great audio companies and products that are out there, particularly AVA. Warner and I actually just had a brief conversation the other day about what a shame it is that more people don't know what their missing when they fail to understand what some of these smaller audio companies bring to the table. Case in point, I honestly had never heard of Van Alstine as of several months ago. But now that I've educated myself, and been the recipient of the great advice of so many other helpful people who participate in forums such as this one, I can guarantee you that Frank will be among the very first people I go to when it comes to making changes and upgrades to my system.

avahifi · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Apr 2006, 12:34 pm »

Thanks for your kind thoughts.

By the way, its now two weeks past my hip replacement surgery, and I am doing fine. I am pretty mobile, my staples are gone, the surgeon says things went very well (aside from the fact that I will now set off all the airport security sensors for miles around -- been advised not to wear a turben while going thru the gates).

Only remaining problem is lots of remaining pain because the surgery also lengthened my leg to match the other one (it was an inch shorter due to the old injury and its repair from high school football days). The stretch is making all the leg muscles, etc., work hard to catch up - - - ouch!

So if you call and I am growlery than normal, its because of a bad pain day, something I will have to put up with for about six weeks i have been told. I will try to be nice if I can, makes for a better sales pitch.

Frank Van Alstine

Nick B · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Apr 2006, 03:39 pm »

Hmmm.....more ornery than usual...... Glad you are on the mend and doing so much better!! Hope business is e great for you as well.

warnerwh · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Apr 2006, 04:13 pm »

Am happy to hear all went well with your surgery Frank. No doubt this type of surgery will leave you with significant pain for a while. Being as you're able to move around is good though. Eat healthily and keep active and hopefully you'll heal faster.

Have a Happy Easter today.

avahifi · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Apr 2006, 04:54 pm »

Hey, I forgot, thanks for the cables. I have not tried them yet. What brand are they?

Frank

warnerwh · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Apr 2006, 09:33 pm »

Frank: You're welcome. I think they're Radio Shack judging by the RCA's.