Electronic Bass Extension

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bluesky

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Electronic Bass Extension
« on: 3 Apr 2006, 05:28 am »
Hi Dave and other folk in the 1801 community,

I am intersted in opinions of electronic bass extension, specifically Greg Ball's design which can be found here:

http://member.dodo.com.au/~gregball/guru_010.htm

I spoke to Greg about it at one of local audio clubs meeetings (now under the rather grand title of "The Royal Audio Club of Queensland").  Greg stated that there were no compromises to the overall sound quality and that a bass extension down to 28Hz could reasonably be expected from 40Hz.

Greg is one smart guy and knows his audio engineering (and completely baffled me with talk of ground planes and such like) but nothing is for nothing in the engineering world and there are always compromises made in arriving at a final design.

I would like anyone's opinion on trying this gizmo out, obviously it would be fantastic if the end result was simply an extension in bass from an existing speaker and I hope to get the 1801 kit in the near future.

Best regards to all,

Bluesky

wildfire99

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #1 on: 3 Apr 2006, 09:35 pm »
The page doesn't load. It is some kind of Linkwitz Transform? If so, I don't think you want to use that with a ported box like the 1801.

I'm more than happy with an external sub, even a 10" one, to fill in from 80hz and below, and it helps keep the woofer cone less busy, which I hear is a good thing (both literally and figuratively).

amplifierguru

Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #2 on: 3 Apr 2006, 09:55 pm »
Hi bluesky and Wildfire,

The unit is eminently suited to use with both ported and sealed bass speakers/subs.

The link has likely been disabled by Ellis.

You may find it on P10 of my website accessible through my www link.
I am quite happy to discuss this although the Ellis threads might not be the best place. Possibly The Lab or Audio Central.

Cheers,
Greg

bluesky

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #3 on: 4 Apr 2006, 12:52 am »
Hi Greg et al

The main reason for posting here is that I want to get an Ellis 1801 kit as soon as I can afford to do so.

I was just interested to hear of anyone's opinion of electronic bass extenders.   I recently read some articles in AudioXpress and Silicon Chip (an Australian electronics magazine) and apart from these two articles I haven't heard much about them and was just interested to find out more about them.

I will still get both the bass extender from Greg and the 1801 kit from Dave (in due time).  I will test out the bass extender on a pair of old speakers I have first to see what happens and how I feel.

Recently I listened to some speakers at a good friends's place which "only" went down to 50Hz and I didn't feel I was missing out on much bass, therefore, with the bass extension of the 1801's going down to the low 40's, the idea of seeking more bass may really just be an academic exercise.

Bluesky

David Ellis

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #4 on: 4 Apr 2006, 01:44 am »
Quote
I am intersted in opinions of electronic bass extension, specifically Greg Ball's design which can be found here:


This is a very thick topic.  My short answer is... does Greg understand thermal compression?

Thermal compression is what happens when a voice coil is dissipating heat and the voice coil temperature rises.  The resitance will rise when the heat rises and... viola' thermal compression happens.

First, In most rooms a sealed f3 in the mid-high 30s is about right.  Other folks whom I respect in such matters agree.  The room lift will correspond with the woofer roll-off and balance just perfectly.  I do understand the room construction varies and rooms are VERY spotty with low bass.  Most rooms start to have base nodes and modes below @300hz.  Above 300hz, many rooms are relatively flat (massive reflections withstanding).

Second, I had a 25hz bass boost on my SCC300 subwoofer woofer with it's sealed F3 in the high 30s.  I didn't like it.  It sounded boomy and fat.  I removed the bass boost and it sounded significantly better.  The bass was nicely balanced.  If someone else prefers the bass-boost for a SCC300 (or similar woofer), this is fine.  But it is not my preference.  I have been there and done that.  I'll not do it again.

Third, it's possible to take ANY woofer system and equalize the bass to the desired level - no matter how insensitive the woofer.  It's possible to make a 84db 4 ohm car audio subwoofer match a 90db 8 ohm monitor.  However, the enerergy dissipated across the subwoofer doubles for every 3db of sensitivity gain and doubles when the impedance (8 ohms) is halved ( to 4 ohms).  If the monitor is pushing 30 watts, the woofer needs 60 (97db), 120 (84db), 240 (4 ohms) watts.  One industry guy commented that thermal distortion is the #2 cause of distortion in loudspeakers.  I think the reasons are obvious.

Fourth, I DO understand that all loudspeakers suffer thermal distortion.  However, the very best (and most expensive) way to accomodate this is by making the speaker more sensitive, and the cabinet resultantly bigger.  

Once upon a time this was not true.  High power amplifiers were relatively expensive, and bigger loudspeaker cabinets were relatively cheap.  Most things were made in the USA, and shipping was a lesser concern.  This isn't true today.  Today's high power amplifiers are cheap, and the cost of shipping big cabinets sans damage is considerable. The cost of amplification is cheap, and the cost of shipping a high power amplifier from china is cheap. The latter are much more durable.

The only truly sad part of this is those big old speakers sounded good in 1 regard - dynamics.  Anyone proud owner of speakers like these will convey this:    while these speakers are terrible in many regards, they succeed in dynamics.  They have snap.  This is simply because very little wattage is required to make the drivers move.  It's a sensitive speaker and it works.  So does the Tannoy Churchill.

There is a very small but very dedicated following for speakers with higher sensitivity using low power triodes.  I believe there are many extremely valid reasons for their dedication, and wish to move in this direction.  I will take a step toward this with my next project.  I am confident that 40wpc is SE Tube is more than enough for my 85db 1801 speakers, so a 20wpc amp will commensurately be more than enough for a 89db 3-way speaker.  It SHOULD be even better with a nice flat impedance curve.  Please note that while this 3-way will likely shake most rooms with a bigger amp, this will not be my personal objective.  I'll use the speaker on a quaint 20wpc SET.

On a personal note... I heard an amazing young gal sing this past weekend.  She sang in an old Lutheran church with a wood celing and plaster/brick walls.  The room was fairly quiet.  There was no amplification, and she wasn't loud, but... oooooh it sounded good!  The resonance of her soprano voice in that old church was sublime.  Her control, enunciation and pitch were perfect.  It brough tears to my eyes.  THIS is good music.

brj

Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #5 on: 4 Apr 2006, 01:59 am »
Quote from: amplifierguru
The link has likely been disabled by Ellis.

I'd suggest that it might be a good idea to eliminate the mundane reasons for a bad link before looking for more elaborate ones.... what if, for example, the original poster simply forgot the "s" on the end of "members" in the URL?

David Ellis

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #6 on: 4 Apr 2006, 02:05 am »
Quote
The link has likely been disabled by Ellis.


Nope, I can't do this.  My permission's don't allow it.  And, even if they did, I wouldn't edit someone else's words.

New ideas are welcome here.  Everyone is welcome to their opinion.

bluesky

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #7 on: 4 Apr 2006, 02:59 am »
Dear Dave and others in the Ellis community

Firstly, thanks to Dave for his insights and information.

Secondly, the is a "s" missing in the link it should be "members", my apologies. :oops:

Best regards  

Bluesky

David Ellis

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #8 on: 4 Apr 2006, 03:19 am »
The link worked when adding an "S". Thanks.

The unit is VERY cheap, and appears to be a viable option for anyone wishing to experiment with more bass.

I... probably won't use it, but for a guy with a very soft room it might work fine.

Cool!

amplifierguru

Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #9 on: 4 Apr 2006, 10:37 pm »
Hi Bob and others,

In this age of cut-n-paste, I never imagined that link to be otherwise!  :oops:

Bob, as a physicist with over 30 years designing stage PA's , 126dB+ disco systems and manufacturing bass augmented audiophile loudspeakers (and renowned Eidetic amplifiers), been a consultant designer to Madrigal (US) and Magnet (Thailand) whose rebadged US brand product won TAS 'Golden Ear', I think I have heard of thermal compression.

Bass augmentation has been around for a long time first commercialised by Electrovoice way back (60's?) for their Thiele Small aligned ported enclosures. I produced my first Bass Extender in 1990 to augment the bass in my Eidetic branded ported loudspeakers. This is a near identical design with modern chips, discrete 80dB regs and fully ground-planed PCB resulting in better performance.

Thermal compression is not likely to be a problem by applying  a restorative 6 dB of  extra amplifier power over a very narrow bass range (and cutting out sub-bass modulation) at reasonable levels or without huge power in that narrow band. It is more than likely the nett effect is zero when the +es and -es are summed and taking into account the elimination of bass unloading. The control afforded by -40dB at 0.1Fpeak is huge. :mrgreen:


Cheers,
Greg

David Ellis

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Electronic Bass Extension
« Reply #10 on: 5 Apr 2006, 12:32 am »
Thanks Greg,

It's always very pleasant and positive to have a guy with tangible experience in such issues.   I appreciate you taking the time to post.

You are correct in assessing that the very minor 6db bump in bass would not be a complete detriment to the sound of the woofer.  This is quite small in the grande scheme of things.

However, I have heard a few subwoofer systems that had prodigious bass boost (12-15db tapering off at @70hz).  These systems sounded quite muddy and compressed to my ears.  The opposite was true with systems that used big woofers in big cabinets that were very sensitive.  The bass from these systems had snap.  

BTW, I did consider the possiblity of using some flavor of woofer amp configuration in my system, but they all seemed to have a VERY low input impedance.  This makes life difficult on the preamp when the signal is split.  Also, I must admit being very partial to the clarity provided by a passive preamp.  While the output stage of my Anthem CD-1 is fairly good, it has a difficult time driving a 20k ohm plate amp and a 50k ohm amplifier.  I simply couldn't find a good plate amp with 100k ohm impedance.  Subsequently, I abandoned this idea.

Thanks again for posting.  

Dave