Need advice on switching Caps for Crossovers?

ABEX · « **on:** 21 May 2003, 10:00 pm »

Hello:
I am looking to switchout the output Caps to my Mid\Tweeter Crossovers which supply Metal Drivers.

Has anyone experienced trying different caps to use with Metal Drivers?

The Values are 4.0 ufd 250v and 10 ufd 100v

TIA

rosconey · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 May 2003, 10:08 pm »

replaced caps and resitors in my michaura m55's-metal dome and drivers, used solan and mills worked nice

drubrew · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 May 2003, 11:58 am »

I recommend changing to either Kimbers or Hovlands. I like Hovlands on tweeters and Kimbers on Mid/bass drivers. I use Mills and Caddock resistors and Aircore and Gortz Foil Inductors. Being that these are all in the higher $ range I would not replace until I know the actual crossover design is the best it can be. If swapping in a commercial speaker or proven DIY kit then I would not worry about it, just swap.
Thanx
Drew Baird
Moon Audio
1008 Antler Court
Apex, NC 27502
919-649-5018
Email: drubrew@bellsouth.net
Web: http://www.moon-audio.com

ABEX · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 May 2003, 12:05 pm »

I am using Modified NEAR M50ME's series III speakers with older components on the Crossover Boards. The sound is great ,just want to see weather I can take it up a notch.

The drivers are all newer versions fro the stock drivers NEAR use to use.

The Tweeters are Inverted Titanium Domes.

Jay S · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 May 2003, 12:13 pm »

Contact Jeff Glowacki of Soniccraft (www.soniccraft.com). His Sonicaps are very highly regarded, as good as the Auricap but significantly cheaper. I have been planning to upgrade the XOs of my speakers with Sonicap capacitors and Mills resistors.

ABEX · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 May 2003, 12:16 pm »

Jay S
That is what I have come down to also! Unless there ia another contender that has been compared to them for a suitable price that is what I will be getting after the 6th of June.

Thx for the confirmation!

Jay S · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 May 2003, 12:23 pm »

Quote from: ABEX

Jay S
That is what I have come down to also! Unless there ia another contender that has been compared to them for a suitable price that is what I will be getting after the 6th of June.

Thx for the confirmation!

Excellent! Let us know how it turns out. Jeff seems to know what he is doing, takes pride in his work/products, and looks out for his customers. For example, I was entirely willing to replace the inductors in my XO (and buy replacements from him) but he advised against it since he said that they were not critical in the design of my XO. He also suggested replacing just 3 of the 5 resistors (but, for $3 each, I figured doing all 5 would not break the bank!).

I have been delaying doing the upgrade since I keep on getting new stuff that I need to break in!

And, my XO board seems to be quite firmly glued to the side of my speaker and I am not ready to try to wrestle it off!

JohnR · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 May 2003, 01:01 pm »

Not critical, huh... I wonder what makes an inductor critical, if being in series with a midbass driver is not it - ?

Jay S · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 May 2003, 01:42 pm »

Hi John,

I see what you are getting at. I'm not in a position to know any better. I'd be happy to email the schematic of the XO to you if you'd be interested in taking a look.

- Jay

drubrew · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 May 2003, 01:58 pm »

While Sonicaps are good quality caps they are not nearly as good as the Hovland INMO. And at the cost of $4-$6 for resistors I would definetly change those.
Thanx
Drew Baird
Moon Audio
1008 Antler Court
Apex, NC 27502
919-649-5018
Email: drubrew@bellsouth.net
Web: http://www.moon-audio.com

JoshK · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 May 2003, 02:29 pm »

What about TRT caps? compared to Hovlands? Anyone test these two?

Brad V · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 May 2003, 05:03 pm »

>>> Not critical, huh... I wonder what makes an inductor critical, if being in series with a midbass driver is not it - ?

In the high pass, an inductor is not as critical as a good Cap.

In the low pass, a capacitor isn't as critical as a good Inductor.

As far as Caps go, the higher end caps have their own signature. The two top Caps I like are Theta and Hovlands. I have tried countless number of caps and compared Hovlands, Thetas, Jensen's, Auricaps and many others. Forget about Solen's for the high pass, as they are low end, IMO.

Hovlands and Thetas are pretty close, however Thetas have a sweeter sound, where the Hovlands are brighter sounding.

If cost wasn't any object, I would guess that Jeff G would recommend the Thetas over his SonicCaps. He sells both, however Soniccaps are his own brand.

Have a great day,

Brad

ABEX · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 May 2003, 07:21 pm »

Drewbru
No one is stateing that anyone Cap is better than another.It comes down to synergy between which Caps to use with what type of driver .JMO

I was willing to get whatever the conensus was. Out of about 5 people that are using metal Drivers they have responded positively to using the SoniCaps.

BTW it is better to get sonic accuratecy by using the same manf. as the Tweeter Caps.Do not know who might be using different manufactures for each ,but I would not do it.JMO

If I find others who feel as you do I might try both to see what results I get when It comes time next month!

Later!

Jay S · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 May 2003, 01:37 am »

Quote from: Brad V

In the high pass, an inductor is not as critical as a good Cap.

In the low pass, a capacitor isn't as critical as a good Inductor.

As far as Caps go, the higher end caps have their own signature. The two top Caps I like are Theta and Hovlands. I have tried countless number of caps and compared Hovlands, Thetas, Jensen's, Auricaps and many others. Forget about Solen's for the high pass, as they are low end, IMO.

Hovlands and Thetas are pretty close, however Thetas have a sweeter sound, where the Hovlands are brighter sounding.

If cost wasn't any object, I would guess that Jeff G would recommend the Thetas over his SonicCaps. He sells both, however Soniccaps are his own brand.

Brad

Thanks for the mini education on XOs. When I tooked at the schematic of my XO I had no idea what was going on!

Your experience that Hovlands tend to be brighter corroborates with what I had read. Given that I am satisfied with the treble energy of my system (and that the rap on the Revelator tweeter is that it can be a bit bright) I think the Hovland may not as good a match as the Theta.

How would you characterize the sonic signature of the Sonicap and the Auricap?

Thanks,

- Jay

Brad V · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 May 2003, 03:03 am »

Hi Jay,

>>> How would you characterize the sonic signature of the Sonicap and the Auricap?

I haven't tried the Soniccaps, however Jeff will steer you in the right direction. He really knows his stuff.

The Auricaps were nice, however I didn't hear the air and detail that I hear with the Hovland or Thetas. They aren't as bright as the Hovlands though. If I hadn't heard the Thetas, I would have been happy with the Auricaps.

Hope that helps,

Brad

Jay S · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 May 2003, 04:38 am »

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the input. Jeff did steer me to the Sonicap, saying that it would in some ways outperform the Theta, but that the Theta was still slightly higher end. Given the price gap, the Sonicap does seem to be the sensible choice.

What makes me comfortable is that Jeff actually has experience with my particularly speaker. When I asked what benefits he expected from swapping in Sonicaps and Mills resistors he replied "more detail, yet less noise. More air with an improved soundstage. More
musical!"

At some point, I'll need to get off my a$$ and get rolling on this. I do admit that I am a bit squeemish about trying to rip the XO board off the side of my speaker.

audioengr · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 May 2003, 07:15 pm »

One thing that is often overlooked when swapping XO parts is the "Q" or quality factor. This is essentially the loss or what makes the response more peaked or flat. The best way to insure that you are not changing the actual response of the XO is to measure the Q with the old component and the new component. The Q is likely to be higher with the new components and may actually change the XO response. You may need to change the values slightly or otherwise add small resistors in series with the C's and L's to compensate.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May 2003, 07:56 pm »

I worked extensively with the Focal Titanium dome tweeters and offered them in several kits that have been around for a while.

I tried a lot of different caps with them and I think finding the right match or synergy as per a given application goes a long way.

A plane old poly cap like the Solen or Axon didn't match well with this tweeter as the speed and detail level of the tweeter really showed off the short comings of the cap. By-passing the poly cap with a .1 uF film and foil helped quite a bit and was a cheap fix.

The Hovlands made the Focal sound a little grainy and edgy and at times too sharp to listen to, but the Hovlands sounded good with our soft dome tweeter.

I would avoid Aluminium foil all together with metal tweeters.

The Tin foil tended to soften the sound some and smoothed the tweeter out. The Audio Cap Theta being the best Tin foil cap I tested.

The Axon film and foil had the same smoothing effect but gave up detail level to the Theta.

The Sonicaps are just plan neutral. They add little coloration at all. I like them much better than the Hovlands, the Auricap, the Audio Cap PPMF (another really good cap) and even better than the Theta in most applications.

I liked the Sonicaps so much that I became a distributor for them. That says a lot for me. I didn't decide to sell them for the sake of making money on them. I decided to sell them because I intended to use them for myself, and I sell lots of them in our kits.

I also have a lot of guys using them in electronics. Dodd Audio has even started using them in place of Hovland Silver Teflon caps in his electronics and says there is little difference (except in price).

eric the red · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 May 2003, 08:28 pm »

Danny-Did you offer Auricaps for an option on the P3's when the kits were available or were the Sonic caps the only ones you offered? I'm trying to figure out what caps are in mine as the tweeter sounds a little edgy, even with my tube amp. I think I paid an extra 32.00 when I bought the kit. Thanks.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 May 2003, 11:13 pm »

I have tried the Auricaps, and the company sent me out samples several times trying to get me to carry them. They just never impressed me enough to carry them.

If you paid extra for a cap upgrade it was for Sonicaps.

That Focal tweeter can still be a bit to the bright side if other things in the system do not match well.

For instance, I really like Silver interconnects or Silver plated Copper speaker wire, but these are not good matches with the Focal tweeter.

The biggest mismatch with this tweeter can be the room. The room needs to be well treated as this tweeter throws a really broad image. Bright rooms can make that tweeter overbearing.

How lively is your room?