I can't listen to "small" speakers anymore

Bill Baker · « **on:** 26 Mar 2006, 04:29 pm »

As you read this, please look at it from a personal level. In this post, I am a music lover speaking from a personal level and not a dealer.

I am curious if others get to a point where they are spoiled after hearing larger speakers. I set up a smaller, rather nice system in my home office, 12' x 17' that utilizes a smaller pair of very good bookshelf speakers and decent electronics. While the sound is very good, I find myself needing that extra lower range and dynamics that I am use to with the larger speakers I listen to all day at work and in my larger full range system at home.

Have I been spoiled to the point of no return? I am very unbiased on a dealer level but like everyone else, I have my personal preferences.

Have others been spoiled in an opposite manner? Going from larger speakers to smaller bookshelf designs?

Please don't get the wrong idea, I still appreciate what smaller (less than 6") bookshelf speakers can offer but find myself needing larger speakers for personal use.

For all you dealers that read this, what is your favorite "type" of speaker that you listen to at home or on a regular basis.

kfr01 · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 04:45 pm »

I am not a dealer, but I need the richness and reinforcement that the lower octaves provide. I'll never be able to use small two-way monitors as my primary speakers again.

Some friends have very high quality 2-way monitors. As I can appreciate how they sound, I always feel that the music sounds less than full and life-like.

95bcwh · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 04:53 pm »

I have compared the two speakers side-by-side:
1)Focal-JM Lab Micro Utopia: Bookshelf Speaker: $6,000
2)Paradigm Signature S-8, Floor Standing: $5,400

When listening to classical music (very little bass) The Utopia had a "slight" edge in terms of transparency and details, but it's actually tough to tell the difference unless you close your eyes and pay 300% attention.

However, the moment I played some music with bass, the Signature S-8 has much better authority. To me the choice is clear.

However, I wonder what whether adding a subwoofer to the Utopia will make a difference?

Can Bookshelf + sub match the sound of a floor standing?

Regards
barry

Bill Baker · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 05:03 pm »

Quote

Can Bookshelf + sub match the sound of a floor standing?

If done properly, it can yield good results, even very good results, but I have found it very difficult to get proper integration between the two. I think the main problem with subs is that many consumers do not know how, or want, to use them properly to obtain the most potential the system has to offer.

I have heard very good systems where powered bass units were designed specifically for the speakers being used with them taking out a lot of guess work.

john1970 · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 05:18 pm »

To all,

I also have the same issues. I used to listen to a pair of Linn Index speakers with dual REL subs, but I also found that proper integration between the Linn and REL was never ideal. I have sold both REL subs (one which was no longer working) and have since moved to a large floorstanding speaker with three 10" drivers (2 are acitve, 1 is passive) per a channel for more bass reinforcement.

As I side note, I grew up listening to a pair of Bozak Concert Grands (with 4 12" woofers / channel). One of the most realisitc speakers I've heard although it does have its weak points such as

1) limited treble repsonse above 11 kHz
2) limited bass response below 30 Hz (but there is not much there anyway)
3) They are HUGE @ 36" W x 20" D x 50" H and tend to scare away women. The floorstanding speaker I've purchased take up a much smaller footprint 13" W x 17" D x 66" H.

Just my $0.02,

John

zybar · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 05:34 pm »

Quote from: john1970

To all,

I also have the same issues. I used to listen to a pair of Linn Index speakers with dual REL subs, but I also found that proper integration between the Linn and REL was never ideal. I have sold both REL subs (one which was no longer working) and have since moved to a large floorstanding speaker with three 10" drivers (2 are acitve, 1 is passive) per a channel for more bass reinforcement.

As I side note, I grew up listening to a pair of Bozak Concert Grands (with 4 12" woofers / channel). ...

Hate to burst your bubble, but the dual REL subs will outperform your speaker with three 10" drivers. To get really satisfying bass with your speakers you will need to augment with subs.

I am not trying to start a war, just giving my observations over the time I owned two pairs of RM 40's.

George

audiojerry · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 05:46 pm »

My all-time favorite speaker has been the Dynaudio Special 25, a stand mount monitor, larger than a bookshelf - 9w x 16h x 14 deep. It had an 8" woofer that allowed it to go down to 35hz -3db, and could play plenty loud without congesting for my tastes. What made it special was the extraordinary smoothness, clarity, and extension of that Esotar tweeter.

It may not have had full scale realism, but listening in the very nearfield in my small room, it gave me more pleasure than any other speaker I've owned, which includes some very large full range speakers such as B&W 801 Series 3, Vienna Acoustics Mahler, Avalon Radian HC, Coincident Super Eclipse, and Dunlavy SC-IV/A, which had a -3db of 25hz.

A well designed 2 way monitor by its nature has advantages over a large full-range in the areas of coherency, transparency, and precise imaging, which may be due to things like a simpler crossover, close proximity of drivers to each other, and a smaller reflective surface area. What do you think Bill?

95bcwh · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 05:50 pm »

Quote from: zybar

Hate to burst your bubble, but the dual REL subs will outperform your speaker with three 10" drivers. To get really satisfying bass with your speakers you will need to augment with subs.

I am not trying to start a war, just giving my observations over the time I owned two pairs of RM 40's.

George

This ties in to my observation too, a friend of mine has a pair of floorstanding + sub. Upon casual listening, I thought the bass was phenomenon...he removes the sub and we all felt that we missed the bass a little bit.

Anyone know what's the trick to integrate a sub into a floorstanding? Where's the ideal frequency crossover? I presume that a Tact 2.2X will make life easier

?

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 06:12 pm »

The TacT 2.2x absolutely helps with the integration.

When I a pair of Larger subs + RM 40's people would listen and ask me when the subs were going to be turned on...of course the subs were already on.

The ideal crossover depends on the speaker, sub, and room.

There is no magic formula, just hours and hours of testing and moving stuff around. Once you lock things in, it is well worth it.

George

zybar · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 06:14 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

My all-time favorite speaker has been the Dynaudio Special 25, a stand mount monitor, larger than a bookshelf - 9w x 16h x 14 deep. It had an 8" woofer that allowed it to go down to 35hz -3db, and could play plenty loud without congesting for my tastes. What made it special was the extraordinary smoothness, clarity, and extension of that Esotar tweeter.

It may not have had full scale realism, but listening in the very nearfield in my small room, it gave me more pleasure than any other speaker I've owned ...

Jerry,

You need to hear the Salk HT3's. Think of it as a speaker with all the great attributes of a 2 way that just happens to be full range.

George

Tweaker · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 06:19 pm »

A good bookshelf and sub combo should outperform full range floorstanders because the ideal location for best imaging and midrange response is never the same as the ideal location for best bass response. Also the (generally) smaller cabinet width of the bookshelf should help add to the better imaging. As mentioned, the tricky part is the integration between the sub/satellites, but that can be made seamless by using a digital equalizer and picking a sub that has a continuously variable 0 to 360 degree phase control as opposed to a 0 to 180 degree phase control.

Scott F. · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 06:36 pm »

Hiya Bill,

Just to add my 2 cents. As you know, I've got a fair amount of experience with this exact subject.

One of the (if not THE) major problems with bookshelves and subs is integration between the two. A somewhat typical bookshelf is good down to around 50hz or so (very general statement). The biggest problem is trying to roll a sub up under that frequency to where the sub doesn't audibly stand out.

This problem is two fold (in my eyes). First the monitor is running full range. Most 6" drivers would prefer to be cut off around 100hz or so (please don't pick that statement apart, follow with me for a while). On the other hand, larger subs (10"-12") are perfectly suited to run in that same frequency range. They have long xmax's (unlike most 6" drivers), and choosing the right sub you can still get nearly the same detail in the 50-100hz range as you would out of a 6".

The second issue you run into with monitor/self powered sub is the frequency overlap at the subs crossover point. Depending on the monitors cabinet design (tuning point, acoustic rolloff characteristics) and room interactions, you can get some severe anomolies in the sound. First your sub needs a 0 to 180 phase selector (read = not a two position switch but an infinately adjustable dial). This allows phase adjustment based upon room placement and distance from the monitors. The second thing you need is an adjustable slope to match the acoustic rolloff of the monitors. This allieviates (sp) peaks (or doubling of frequencies) within the crossover region. Trouble is, some (though not all) of the plate amps used in active subs don't have one or more of these controls. The ones that do have them, setup and intergration of the sub can be time consuming and frustrating.

The absolute best and easiest way to do this is an active crossover driving a dedicated sub amp and a pair of passive subs (read = subwoofers in boxes with no plate amp or crossover). The active crossover allows you to cut off your monitors at a reasonable frequency (say 100hz).

This accomplishes a couple of things. First, your amp driving the the monitors doesn't have to produce the lowest of frequencies. Essentially you gain loads of headroom on the amp since it doesn't work as hard. Second, your monitorss are happier and respond with cleaner sound since they aren't trying to settle themselves after just trying produce 50hz bass.

Your subs (in my case) are being driven by a bigger solid state amp designed to handle the current needed to produce deep bass while keeping a choke hold on the driver. Since you have an upper frequency cutoff and adjustable slopes, integration with the monitors is a snap.

An active crossover gives you the best of all worlds. You can keep your monotors and enjoy the things they do so well, definition, imaging, soundstaging, and disappearing in room (or whatever). Then the subs roll in seamlessly with the active crossover. They give you that chest pounding bass (if thats what you are looking for) or just the room filling ambiance. Large subs also let you reach down and get the last octave of sound (and below) which isn't usually availible in floorstanders or monitors.

All this comes with its drawbacks. There are very, very few good active crossovers and the choices are very limited. NHT makes an OK crossover which isn't too expensive at about $300. There are some very good vintage XOs out there but be prepaired to open your wallet. These things aren't cheap and they usually need updating (caps mainly). You have CI Audio (if his has hit the market yet), Marchand and maybe one or two more mfgrs that are currently producing them.

You also need separate amplification for the subs. This is easily accomplished with a high powered prosound amp (QSC, Carver, Crown or the like). These amps are cheap, plentyful and do a decent job. You also need separate cabling. Depending on how far you go, you can do it cheap or expensive.

Lastly, you need (IMO) stereo subs. Anybody that trys to tell you that anything below 50hz is not directional hasn't listened to stereo subs. It IS directional depending on the sub placement (ie; not between the speakers) and the source recording (ie; Blue Man Group has sub 50hz stereo bass as a single example, there are many many more).

Utilizing active crossover in your system can be asbolutely fabulous. It can take your system into the realm of multi, multi thousand dollar speakers and them some. Active crossovers allow you to compensate for bass shy recordings because you can flip the XO point up an octave or so then bring the bass up to level out those bass shy recordings we all have (that statement is for the music lover rather than the flat earther).

IME active crossovers are head and shoulders better than active subs. They are far easier to setup, have less integration issues (lumpy bass), and just plain make your system sound better (headroom , clarity, dynamics).

As always, YMMV.

john1970 · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 08:09 pm »

Zybar,

I owned the REL Strata III subs (sealed with only one 10" driver per a sub). In room they never went below 32.5 Hz and the driver used to break-up @ 25 Hz or lower. I find it difficult to believe that the RM40s with 4 active 10" driver + 2 passive 10" drivers do not go as low as these entry level (yet expensive) REL subs.

Note I agree that the larger REL sub with dual 10" drivers do go lower than the RM40s; however, these are out of my price range @ $9K each.

Just my thoughts,

John

Tweaker · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 08:21 pm »

The other advantage the bookshelf has is that without the big woofer(s) there is far less vibration to cause smearing as well as the fact the cabinet is easier to build rigid to minimize what vibration there is.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 09:19 pm »

Quote

My all-time favorite speaker has been the Dynaudio Special 25, a stand mount monitor, larger than a bookshelf - 9w x 16h x 14 deep. It had an 8" woofer that allowed it to go down to 35hz -3db, and could play plenty loud without congesting for my tastes. What made it special was the extraordinary smoothness, clarity, and extension of that Esotar tweeter.

Obviously, there are exceptions. The Dynaudio Special 25 is just that... special. The "bookshelf" speakers I was speaking of were of the smaller variation smaller than 6" drivers. Then again, not too many 8" 2-way speakers get down to 35Hz like the Dyn. But then again, these speakers do come at a price.
I had a pair of 1.1's? with the 5" driver and these speakers out performed many larger speakers in regard to low end extension and dynamics. Very impressive for a 5 incher.

Quote

A well designed 2 way monitor by its nature has advantages over a large full-range in the areas of coherency, transparency, and precise imaging, which may be due to things like a simpler crossover, close proximity of drivers to each other, and a smaller reflective surface area. What do you think Bill?

You are absolutely correct Jerry. As I mentioned, I do like and appreciate many smaller designs and yes, they do have some advantages. You could say that like anything audio, every design has it's pros and cons.

Quote

has advantages over a large full-range in the areas of coherency, transparency, and precise imaging, which may be due to things like a simpler crossover, close

There are many larger designs today that offer all these traits without much in terms of sacrifice. I think many consumers go for smaller designs due to either application or cost. There are fine example of both large and smaller designs. For example, I have yet to hear a speaker with a 12" wide front baffle and conventional dome tweeter that could image like the SP Tech speakers. It's all in the design.

Quote

Utilizing active crossover in your system can be asbolutely fabulous. It can take your system into the realm of multi, multi thousand dollar speakers and them some.

Again, yes I do agree that active crossovers can provide great results but like sub/sat systems, requires a lot of time getting it right.

melville · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Mar 2006, 11:11 pm »

You don't need huge multi-driver speakers to get good bass. I have Merlin Music Systems VSM SE speakers, with the BAM, and I get very satisfying bass (down 3dB at 34Hz) from a speaker that is 42" in. tall and has a footprint of 8"X10.5". To be fair, these speakers do not move large amounts of air, like the big boys; but the bass is tight, articulate, dynamic and fairly low. Coincidentally, this speaker also uses the Esotar tweeter (which has nothing to do with bass, of course).

I was thinking seriously about getting the Special 25s, as I used the 1.3SEs, but was seduced by the VSMs.

flintstone · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Mar 2006, 12:13 am »

Yep...once a fullranger always a fullranger...anything less is always at least a slight let down....or large, depending on the music. My Apogees aren't quite fullrange but they do reproduce an honest 28hz in my large room.

Now my old VMPS ST/R's...well, their in the hometheater were they belong.... but I can truly say " no subs needed" with those old boys.

Dave

LAL · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Mar 2006, 12:22 am »

Bill,
Up until this fall I had 3 systems to listen to. My main system used very nice electronics, a highly tweaked audio rack and platform etc. with VMPS RM 40's in custom cabinets augmented with a 15 inch Adire Tumult in a large sealed enclosure all in large room. The second system consisted of good quality small speakers, mediocre electronics in a home theater setup in 12' x 18' room. The third sytem was 15" pro woofer in a bass reflex cabinet and a compression driver with a horn powered by an aging stereo receiver in my rec room. I recently gave my home theater speakers to one of my sons and moved the rec room speakers into my home theater using some nondescript speakers for the 3 rear surrounds. Having lived with pro drivers for a few months listening to them daily I am having real problem with the idea of giving them up and going back to the typical 2 way 6" midwoofer and dome tweeter. After spending a little time and money on taming some internal cabinet resonances produced by the big woofers I am really quite surprised by the high quality sound these pro drivers can produce. The lack of compression, low distortion and virtually unlimited dynamic range gives music from these speakers an aura of realism that smaller speakers can't compete with, if those qualities have any importance to the listener. I recently brought the big Tumult sub in to play with them. Pretty darn impressive sound if you can get away with it! Perhaps not for the apartment dweller and not for when your wife is around. I have come to the conclusion that for realistic sound you need to move alot of air with low distortion and not just in subwoofer range either. You might think that the 15" woofers would overwelm the smaller room but that doesn't seem to be the case for me. They also sound good at low volumes but the temptation is always there to turn them up. That being said, I am sure they would not be everyone's cup of tea and that in some areas of reproduction the smaller speakers would excell.

bhobba · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Mar 2006, 12:51 am »

I am surprised no one has mentioned it since Bill also sells them but the SP Timepiece puts to end the idea deep accurate bass requires a big speaker.

Thanks
Bill

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Mar 2006, 12:57 am »

Quote from: bhobba

I am surprised no one has mentioned it since Bill also sells them but the SP Timepiece puts to end the idea deep accurate bass requires a big speaker.

Thanks
Bill

Well....I was waiting for you Bill to say it....

Chris[/list:u]