[Rob Babcock]

I've been contemplating an AMD for my next project.  Right now Newegg has a great deal on the MSI's top MoBo (MSI K8N Diamond Plus ATX AMD Motherboard, just $180.  My brother just paid $230 for the same one locally.  The combo deal they have is also pretty killer- you can get an AMD Athlon 64 FX55 San Diego 1GHz HT 1MB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor for $150 off with the board ($660 as opposed to $810).

Now granted that's a lot to pay for a proc.  But it's got me thinking, if you were going to build one, would you go with an Uber-Single-Core like that or opt for a Dual Core?  Something like the AMD Athlon 64 X2 4800+ Toledo?  I've heard it said for compatibility with games you should go with the single core.  But aside from using DVD-Shrink while you play DOOM 3, what's the need/use for 2 cores?

Lastly, are the San Diego and Venice cores just simply newer than the Newcastle and Clawhammer?  Do they have significantly advanced architecture or just incrementally higher clock speeds?  I'm a little confused on the real diffs between the Opteron and Athlons, too.  I could use some input from some AMD-loving propellerheads.

[Rob Babcock]

I realize, btw, that the first thing I'll probably be asked is "what will you use the computer for?"  That's a fair enough question, but hard to answer.  I have two PCs, and that's not likely to change.  I'm not really much of a PC gamer, but in all fairness I've never had a high powered rig to use.  If I had the muscle (& graphics card) to run FPS's at 80 fps maybe I would.

Definately this hypothetical machine better scream while using DVD-decrypter/DVD-shrink, and should be able to rip music like greased lightnin.  It has to be an all-around good machine for lots of uses.

I may not need to buy a $600+ dollar proc, but I am curious about the 2 core vs 1 core thing.

Oh yeah; do you need a 64 bit WinXP to utilize a 64 bit proc?

[bubba966]

Go for a 2 core cpu if you're doing a lot of heavy multitasking. If you're not then go for a 1 core cpu.

I might be able to say something more about your AMD questions later. But I'm about to fall asleep at the keyboard at the moment so I won't add much more now as I can't think worth a crap at the moment...

[Woodsea]

Hi Rob,
The dual core sounds really cool, but does not always come up with the best 'numbers'.  Right now, I  would still lean toward a single processor.
I for one am waiting for Vista and DX10, which will be in 1Q07.  I can wait, since I am still in Mongolia.  Next year I will be moving to Cuba, and I will want an UBER machine to use as TIVO/Gaming/Music machine.
You should check out http://www.extremetech.com
They are pretty knowledgeable.

[Eli]

I've been contemplating an AMD for my next project.  Right now Newegg has a great deal on the MSI's top MoBo (MSI K8N Diamond Plus ATX AMD Motherboard, just $180.  My brother just paid $230 for the same one locally.  The combo deal they have is also pretty killer- you can get an AMD Athlon 64 FX55 San Diego 1GHz HT 1MB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor for $150 off with the board ($660 as opposed to $810).

Now granted that's a lot to p ...

Depends on what your goals are - what the machine be used for, and what your budget allows.  You can get a killer machine set up for under $1000 (sans monitor), or you can easily pay two or three times that if you want the very fastest processor, the very fastest video card(s), a slick gee-wiz case, and lots of disk storage.  Not unlike audio gear, you pay exhorbitantly for that last 5-10% of performance.  The market factors are a bit different than with audio (the same computer system will cost 1/3 of what it does today in three years, not so for the same audio system), but the same ideas apply.

[DeadFish]

Hey Rob!

I'll ditto everyone else on the 'use' issue, though I lean towards the prospect of dual core.  My son just built a dual core machine last week, and at this time, with gaming, most games don't take advantage of what dual core offers, and in fact, I've read where on some games, it is as if the cap the frame rate for dual compared to single core.
(http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTAwMiwxNiwsaGVudGh1c2lhc3Q)

HOWever, more stuff will come along to take advantage of it, as time goes on, and you would future-proof your machine a bit to go that route.
Most especially for me, what with the ripping of cd's for my Squeezebox, and of course, stashing the flacs on DVD, dual core would offer the advantage of having the horsepower for more than one direction.  I cannot stand how even surfing sucks whilst doing these other tasks, so went back to using 2 machines myself.  I'm getting old enough where wrist-twitching games aren't 'all that' for me, but for my uses, if building another machine, I'd go dual core.
You might also check such sites as www.tomshardware.com
and www.sharkeyextreme.com.  
Sharkey's do an article every so often on 'econo' vs. 'full-tilt' machinery, and what 'best buys' are out there.
Likewise, do your homework well on that motherboard.  Though my son thought he did, the DFI board he bought was well recomended, but once he put it together and it didn't work...he found out about corrupted bios issues for many people... and went with an Asus.  YMMV though.
Good luck!
Regards,
DeadFish

[brj]

With the entire industry finally moving to dual core processors, you will start to see more and more software updated to include multi-threading.  It won't happen quickly, but the ultimate result is that, over time, your system will actually appear to get faster in many situations.

Be aware, however, that AMD will be releasing their new socket design (AM2) and associated processors on June 6th.  The only real change from the current 939 socket designs is that the on-processor memory controllers will support DDR2 memory instead of the current DDR.  The socket was changed mostly to prevent people from accidently plugging a DDR2 processor into a DDR motherboard.  Basically, if you are going to reuse existing memory, then don't worry about it and feel free to pursue a socket 939 based system.  If you were planning on purchasing new memory with the system, then you may want to wait for the new products.

Be aware that the increased latency of DDR2 memory, compared to DDR1, means that you will need 800 MHz or faster DDR2 memory in order to realize a performance improvement over quality DDR1 RAM.  The plus side is that DDR2 memory is cheaper to produce than DDR1 memory, and thus DDR2 will eventually be cheaper than DDR1 at every performance point.

[Rob Babcock]

Shoot- I actually aleady orded a pair of matched dual-channel 1GB x 2 PC3200 DDR.  It should arrive from Newegg within a day or two.  No, I'm not looking for that last 5% of performance, just a good blend of all-around muscle.  Right now I have two machines connected to one monitor & keyboard via a KVM switch, so really slowdown while ripping stuff isn't an issue- often I rip on my Pentium rig while I surf on my Celeron.  

My main internet PC is a 2.7 Gig Celeron with a 256 MB DIMM & a 512 MG DIMM of memory.  No, they're not dual-channel nor do they match.  My other rig is a homemade PC with a 2.8 Gig Northwood core P4 on an Intel MoBo.  It's got one 512 MB DIMM of pretty good memory with a 2.5 CAS latency.  While not a 'screamer' anymore, it's pretty decent.

I've just really been interested in trying out an Athlon processor.  I don't game a lot but I might if I had a little more muscle.  But I'm not spending $650 on a video card!  

[Eli]

Shoot- I actually aleady orded a pair of matched dual-channel 1GB x 2 PC3200 DDR.  It should arrive from Newegg within a day or two.  No, I'm not looking for that last 5% of performance, just a good blend of all-around muscle.  Right now I have two machines connected to one monitor & keyboard via a KVM switch, so really slowdown while ripping stuff isn't an issue- often I rip on my Pentium rig while I surf on my Celeron.  

My main internet PC is a 2.7 Gig Celeron with a 256 MB DIMM & a 512 MG DIMM of mem ...

I'm kinda in the same boat as you.  My main PC is a P4 3.0C on an ASUS 875 chipset mainboard, with 1 GB of ram and an ATI 9800Pro video card.  When I built it, stability was #1 on my list of criteria, so no overclocking, and I also used slower ECC memory.  It's definitely been the most stable system I've ever used.

Right now I'm building a new Athlon X2 system that I'm expecting will be a lot faster.  The CPU arrives tomorrow. The old system will become a server for SlimServer and some web development stuff I do.  Unlike you, when I'm ripping and transferring files to my NAS I see considerable slowdowns.  So I decided to take the plunge.  Two GB of ram (non-ECC), a 10k RPM WD Raptor system drive, Athlon 64 X2 4400+.  I'm also aiming for a fairly quiet computer, unlike my current one, so I've gotten a motherboard with a passive northbridge heatsink and a Thermalright SI-120 HS for the CPU, and will probably swap out the power supply in the new case for a quieter unit.

All told, it looks like this:

Motherboard: ASUS A8N-SLI Premium, Socket 939, nForce4 chipset
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+, Toledo core, 2.2GHz, 2x1MB cache
CPU Heatsink/fan: Thermalright SI-120 w/ Panaflo 120x38mm fan
Case: Antec TX-635
Videocard: XFX GeForce 6600GT with Artic Cooling Silencer NV 6 (used)
Memory: OCZ OCZ4002048ELDCPE-K 2x1GB 2-3-2-5t
Sound Card: M-Audio Revolution (from old system)
Optical Drive: Plextor PX-712A DVD/RW (from old system)
Hard Drive #1: Western Digital Raptor WD740GD, 74GB 10k RPM
Hard Drive #2: Western Digital WD2000JD (from old system)

For the CPU, I debated between an Athlon 4200 and a 4400, both dual core.  The 4200 is about $100 cheaper, and with 1/2 the cache would likely also run a bit cooler (which translates to less cooling needed and less noise).  Not sure I'll see the difference from the added cache on the 4400, but I work with processing a lot of files, so maybe.  I decided to stretch the budget some and try to avoid wanting to replace the system again in less that two years.

The motherboard was an easy/hard choice.  A little pricey if the only goal is the passive northbridge heatsink.  But I've always liked ASUS boards and this one had a good reputation.  I doubt that I'll ever use SLI (dual video cards) so that's another area where I paid for a feature I don't need.  Another possibility I considered was the less expensive A8N-E, which is non-SLI, with the nForce 4 Ultra chipset, but with a little 40mm screamer of a fan on the northbridge.

The case is nothing special, but I like the size, the ease of use (I've used some similar Antec cases, both the same size and larger) and the 120mm exhaust fan.  If I spend another $80-100 to replace the PSU then it certainly won't have been a bargain.  The Antec P150 case is another that I considered and might choose if doing it again.

The Raptor 10k RPM I'm hoping will help avoid some drive congestion as I rip to the drive, process other files, and transfer still more files off of it.  A lot can be done with multiple drives, but with the goal of keeping noise at a fairly sane level, I'm going to restrict the system to two hard drives.  I may add another 10k RPM drive in the future.

The video card I picked up used for $85 to tide me over until I decide whether to drop $300 for a new GeForct 7900GT, or maybe even go with an ATI card.  For moderate gaming, you might look into the the new GeForce 7600GT cards for about $200.

[randytsuch]

Hi guys,
I have also been looking into upgrading my home desktop.  It is used mainly for video applications, I have an ATI All in Wonder video card in it, so I can use it for a cheap Tivo, and burn programs to DVD if I want.  I also take home movies, and edit/convert them on it.

Desktop is a 2.4 P4, OCed to about 3G.  Just bought 2x512 sticks of mem for it.

I have been thinking about getting a 64X2, but the high prices for the dual core processors is holding me back.  The dual core Opterons are supposed to be basically the same as the 64X2, they are just meant for servers instead of desktops.  The low end dual core opteron is supposed to be a bargain if you overclock it, as it can go a lot faster.

I also want to make it quieter, and am starting to think about water cooling.  I will start another thread on that, to see if anybody does it.  I also want to get a quieter PS for it.

BTW Eli, I have an Asus MB now, and I also like Asus.  I would get the A8N, but it won't support my AGP AIW video card, and I am not sure I want to buy another video card.

Randy

[dave_c]

Dual Core is a great choice right now because you're catching the tail end of the Socket 939 technology so its very mature.  Later this year will be all AM2 and Dual Core so you might as well get as much of the future as possible.  Really the only reason to go FX series is to have the multiplier unlocked so you can overclock.  Going forward all FX series will be Dual Core so AMD believes in the technology as well.  

In the future there's going to be more software geared for dual core and even if there isn't, it will be nice to have two cores to do some cable card decoding on vista while you're browsing or what not.

The Opteron 1xx series used to be priced a little better than the other 2x1mb cache X2 processors but now they are slightly more expensive.  They are the same proc, but I think Opty's may be binned better.

Either way, AMD's are great and Dual Core is the way to go.

[randytsuch]

I just found this at a forumhttp://www.hothardware.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=80&threadid=32739&enterthread=y

It has coupon codes for monarch computer, for discounts on opteron's.
Thinking about ordering an opteron 165, you save $60 on it.

My big issue right now is I want to stick with my AGP All in Wonder video card, but they I need to stick with "old" technology AGP video.  It limits me to older motherboards that still support AGP.  I may end up getting a Asus A8v MB, it is only $75 shipped, and looks like it has everything I would need on it.

Randy

[dave_c]

I just found this at a forumhttp://www.hothardware.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=80&threadid=32739&enterthread=y

It has coupon codes for monarch computer, for discounts on opteron's.
Thinking about ordering an opteron 165, you save $60 on it.

My big issue right now is I want to stick with my AGP All in Wonder video card, but they I need to stick with "old" technology AGP video.  It limits me to older motherboards that still support AGP.  I may end up getting a Asus A8v MB, it is only $75 shipped, and looks like it has everything I would need on it.

Randy

Yeah you're kind of screwed because none of the NForce4 or Crossfire chipsets support AGP.  So if you want a full featured chipset you need to upgrade your card to PCI-E.  It might be worth it at this point if you think about it.  No sense getting a state of the art chip if you don't make use full use of it.

[Eli]

Yeah you're kind of screwed because none of the NForce4 or Crossfire chipsets support AGP.  So if you want a full featured chipset you need to upgrade your card to PCI-E.  It might be worth it at this point if you think about it.  No sense getting a state of the art chip if you don't make use full use of it.

True.  And to equal the AIW performance you may not have to spend that much, especially if you can pick up a used card from someone upgrading to the latest and greatest gaming card.

[randytsuch]

Yeah you're kind of screwed because none of the NForce4 or Crossfire chipsets support AGP.  So if you want a full featured chipset you need to upgrade your card to PCI-E.  It might be worth it at this point if you think about it.  No sense getting a state of the art chip if you don't make use full use of it.

True.  And to equal the AIW performance you may not have to spend that much, especially if you can pick up a used card from someone upgrading to the latest and greatest gaming card.

I am sure by today's standard, my aiw9600 is slow, but it works fine for me, and I like the All in wonder TV features.  If I replaced it, I would want to get a good tuner/video capture card, so I don't lose those funtions.

I just found this mb, Asrock 939Dual SATA2
It supports both PCI-E and AGP video cards, with no performance hits on either.  Based on the reviews I just looked at, it is a little slower than the best MB's, but it's only about $70, and will also support the M2 socket processor with a daughtercard.  This may be my new MB.

Rob,
sorry to steal your thread

Randy