Upgrade front end or the amp..or the speakers??

martyj · « **on:** 21 May 2003, 02:06 am »

Hi all,

I'm a newbie here. In fact I feel like a newbie to audio systems. I love music and have eclectic tastes from Classical to Blues and from Dave Matthews to Ani DiFranco. I like jazz but being as impulsive as I am, I sometimes jump at an CD before I know what it will sound like. That wouldn't be bad if I had unlimited funds, obviously I don't.

I'm currently using a Rotel RA-932 integrated amp driving a pair of B&W 303's. I'm using a DVD player/CD player for my front end. I find that most of the pop music, even some rock sounds awful on this system. It's great in the car, but not on my system. I love Paul Simon's Graceland, I could listen to it all day long. I also really really like Miles Davis's Kind of Blue. Ry Cooder, Stan Getz on Getz/Gilberto is a favorite from College. I get to babbling and my finger get tongue tied..anyway I'll get to my question.

I really like this site, it is so cool to see all these people so passionate about music and their systems.

I want to improve the sound and have been very intrigued by tubes or Hybrid amps. I think that I need more power or more efficient speakers. I want to jump into this and get the right piece of equipment, but have this thought in the back of my head, that I should probably buy a CD player. I never thought about it before, but a DVD player isn't the same, I mean it's a compromise.

I've read so many reviews online about CD players and amps and speakers, I'm vibrating from all the input. I've heard great things about 3 players, Music Hall CD25, Tjoe Tjoeb 4000 and the Jolida 100A. The problem crops up after I say this, because the way this music biz is going everything will be digital or copy protected or on DVD-A or SACD. I like 2 channel and can get a better system if I concentrate on that. That's my feeling anyway.

Any suggestions or ideas on where to look or just say hi. Thanks in advance for your help, ideas, etc.

Marty

Marbles · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:12 am »

Hi Marty,

The MH CD25 is being modded by Dan Wright and sold by Response Audio (they have a forum here). I have not heard it, but I would put that one on your short list as well.

BTW, I think you have done a really good job of your short list.

Also you might want to consider a transport/Dac combo as well.

ZooDog · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:17 am »

Marty,

What is it about the sound of your system that you don't like? Too bright? Not enough bass? This info will help people here give you some good advice.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:32 am »

Marty,
I have the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 player and am very happy with it; I've not however compared it to the other players you've mentioned. One thing I like about it is of course the tubes and the ability to change the sound with swapping tubes. I've switched the originals to Amperex Globes which strike me as more musical and easier to listen to. You can also tweak the Tjoeb as money becomes available--I've added chassis damping and Walker Valid Points (support cones). I keep planning on trying the upsampler that Upscale has had for awhile.

Good luck on your search. I think either of the players listed would work well: it's just a case of getting which would work best.

Carlman · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:43 am »

What does your car audio do right that your home audio does not?

In my experience, new speakers will change the personality of your system the most. Electronics make almost as much difference collectively as changing a pair of speakers. However, you have fairly nice speakers. I'm thinking you need a sub if you don't have one. Maybe the Yamaha FST discussed ad nauseum in another thread in the Critic's Circle.... Or, there are about a million other choices for a sub.

Additionally, the DVD player can sound very good if you use an external DAC. I've had a Soundstream DAC-1 and an Audio Alchemy that were both around $100 and improved the sound dramatically. You'll need a digital cable, there's tons of them used around $50 that will suffice.

Hope that helps,
Carl

martyj · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:54 am »

Quote from: ZooDog

Marty,

What is it about the sound of your system that you don't like? Too bright? Not enough bass? This info will help people here give you some good advice.

ZooDog,

Good question!

It's too bright at times too forward and analytical. Ani CD Armed to the Teeth sounds great, balanced with bass and mids and treble.

I'd like more bass, but that seems like an afterthought, because of trying to get better mids.

Marty

BWentler · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 May 2003, 03:26 am »

What are you looking at spending?

Options (in order of improvements):
1) See when Klaus @ Oddyssey Audio has his new Khartago amp & Estesian passive preamp available for purchase and sell your Rotel RA-932.

2) What are you using for interconnects and speaker cables? You could replace/upgrade those. Klaus sells the Gronenberg cable line that are very good and low in cost!

3) Sending your DVD-CD player to a place like ModWright for a mod upgrade.

4) Send your Rotel RA-932 somewhere for a mod job.

That is what I would do...

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 May 2003, 05:26 am »

B&W speakers can be a bit bright/forward, depending on the electronics they're paired with. VMPS and GR research both have forums here and have many satisfied customers.

Likewise, I've been waiting on IRD to finish the Sabai preamp; the folks here that have heard the IRD Purist preamp have had nothing but praise.

I'm on the waiting list for 3 nOhr Le Amp II monobloc amps; I'll let you know when I get the chance to hear them!

Again, what I'd recommend depends on the price range you're looking in. Adding a nice universal player might be a good choice; I have a Pioneer Elite DV-45A, and it makes a good transport. Modwright has choosen this family of players as the platform for most of their mods, and they are great units. Add a highly regarded Boulder Smart/Mensa DI/O and you'd have a nice digital rig for a pretty reasonable price. Plus, SACD/DVD-A playback will transform your expectations for sound quality, although there isn't a lot of music out yet.

Jay S · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 May 2003, 08:20 am »

Consider a Scott Nixon tube dac ($350). It is said to sound great and will really help to take the edge off nasty pop recordings, especially while you have other equipment that can tend to be bright (e.g. B&W speakers, an average DVD player as a transport). Especially since you like jazz/Kind of Blue you may well appreciate a bit of tube sound in your system.

If you want to revamp the rest of your system in 1 fell swoop, consider Klaus's (Odyssey Audio) combo of the Etessian preamp, Khartago amp and Epiphony speakers for $1,500/total. They should all match perfectly together. Klaus is really big on system matching/synergy, and you can benefit from this. Down the road, if you want more bass, consider an Adire Audio Rava powered sub for $399.

martyj · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 May 2003, 12:08 pm »

Quote from: BWentler

What are you looking at spending?

Options (in order of improvements):
1) See when Klaus @ Oddyssey Audio has his new Khartago amp & Estesian passive preamp available for purchase and sell your Rotel RA-932.
2) What are you using for interconnects and speaker cables? You could replace/upgrade those. Klaus sells the Gronenberg cable line that are very good and low in cost!
3) Sending your DVD-CD player to a place like ModWright for a mod upgrade.
4) Send your Rotel RA-932 somewhere for a mod job.

That is what I would do...

Thanks for the suggestions and the most important question I forgot to think about..how much am I looking to spend! I'd like to spend less than $1,000. What about buying tube amp used on here? Is there any inherent problems with a 1 year old tube amp that I should be aware of?

Thanks again for your thoughtful response and your questions. Like I said, my brain moves so fast sometimes I don't get it all out like I want. ADD is wonderful sometimes, but...

Marty

MaxCast · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:23 pm »

Many fine suggestions here guys, good job

A used tube amp is fine, but you will have to face the tube rolling/replacement viper as well. Also, consider your listening volumes with lower watage tube amps.

Your budget is $1000 which is fine, but do you plan on more money for an upgrade in the future? If so, how long. Some of these suggestions may take a couple steps. My first thought was a DAC. Check out the Scott Nixon DAC at a good price which leaves more money for an additional piece.

Does your amp have pre ins and pre outs? You could look for a low cost tube preamp to add a little warmth to your system. Also, your room set up and speaker placement has a great affect on your sound. Rule of thumb: keep your speakers away from the walls, TV, etc. and try to get a coutch or something between you and your speakers to your left and right side. How large is the room?

I support buying used as you can usually bump up to the next level of gear for the same price as new. Of course check out what the mfgs here have to offer because they offer great bang for the buck as there are no dealers around.

maxwalrath · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:26 pm »

My first setup used a $300 Jolida 301, and was great. I don't think there's a better value in audio, and that's before switching preamp tubes.
Max

martyj · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:40 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Hi Marty,

The MH CD25 is being modded by Dan Wright and sold by Response Audio (they have a forum here). I have not heard it, but I would put that one on your short list as well.

BTW, I think you have done a really good job of your short list.

Also you might want to consider a transport/Dac combo as well.

I've seen the Response site and love the Jolida product line. The modified JD302 and JD502 make me drool. I've seen the Ram CD modified by Dan Wright and it too looks wonderful. I just can't justify that much money, probably because I haven't heard it and definitely because of the WAF challenge

martyj · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:42 pm »

I forgot to say thanks, Marbles. I do appreciate your thoughtful response. I don't really understand what a DAC is or a transport. I am indeed a newbie without a grasp of the jargon.

martyj · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:45 pm »

Quote from: Tonto Yoder

Marty,
I have the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 player and am very happy with it; I've not however compared it to the other players you've mentioned. One thing I like about it is of course the tubes and the ability to change the sound with swapping tubes. I've switched the originals to Amperex Globes which strike me as more musical and easier to listen to. You can also tweak the Tjoeb as money becomes available--I've added chassis damping and Walker Valid Points (support cones). I keep planning on trying the up ...

Thanks Tonto Yoder, I like the name btw. You echoe my thoughts as to upgradeability for the Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000! This choice seems to make the most sense economically. I also like the name and look of the player.

Marty

martyj · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:48 pm »

Quote from: Carlman

What does your car audio do right that your home audio does not?

In my experience, new speakers will change the personality of your system the most. Electronics make almost as much difference collectively as changing a pair of speakers. However, you have fairly nice speakers. I'm thinking you need a sub if you don't have one. Maybe the Yamaha FST discussed ad nauseum in another thread in the Critic's Circle.... Or, there are about a million other choices for a sub.

Additionally, the DVD player can ...

Thanks Carlman. I like the speakers which is why I'm leaning more to the player or the tube amp. I figured I could live with limitations from the speakers and upgrade them later.

martyj · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: BWentler

What are you looking at spending?

Options (in order of improvements):
1) See when Klaus @ Oddyssey Audio has his new Khartago amp & Estesian passive preamp available for purchase and sell your Rotel RA-932.
2) What are you using for interconnects and speaker cables? You could replace/upgrade those. Klaus sells the Gronenberg cable line that are very good and low in cost!
3) Sending your DVD-CD player to a place like ModWright for a mod upgrade.
4) Send your Rotel RA-932 somewhere for a mod job.

That is what I would do...

Again, thanks for the suggestions. I'd like to stay with the integrated amp for simplicity and for WAF and space. I've been using AudioQuest cables, solid core 4 wire which I bought with the amp and speakers. I recently went to Radio Shack to buy 12 ga multistrand zip wire and banana clips. I thought the sound was fine with less expense. This was from a tip on DIY cables on TNT. ModWright sounds expensive to me, but that is without looking at their site. I also like the Rotel for it's sentimental value. The last time I bought audio was back in the 70's. I upgraded a Marantz receiver to Yamaha A800 integrated amp and tuner, Direct Drive Turntable, Cassette Player (never used it much for recording) and ADS mini monitors as well as Cizek speakers, which were heavy mothers, but sounded great.

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts.

Hantra · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:56 pm »

Quote

Check out the Scott Nixon DAC at a good price which leaves more money for an additional piece.

I'm glad you said it b/c I don't want to sound like some of these religious zealots around here.

Anyhow, Friday, I heard the best system I have ever heard in my life. This guy was using a $30,000 Accuphase front end with the DP-101, and SACD-100. This was the best implementation of oversampling I have heard. BUT I would not hesitate to take my Nixon DAC over and replace that Accuphase with it.

As I have said before, until you spend $6500, I have yet to hear a DAC that beats it. And the $6500 AN 3.1x balanced BARELY beats it. . . On second thought, I did that comparison WITHOUT the new upgraded power supply which I just got. So I wouldn't hesitate to say it would at least equal the 3.1x now. . .

Pick up the TubeDAC for $350, and a Sony DVP-7700S for $250, and you still have money for a killer set of Audience AU24's. I'd challenge anything on the planet with that front end.

B

martyj · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 May 2003, 01:59 pm »

Quote from: MaxCast

Many fine suggestions here guys, good job
A used tube amp is fine, but you will have to face the tube rolling/replacement viper as well. Also, consider your listening volumes with lower watage tube amps.

Your budget is $1000 which is fine, but do you plan on more money for an upgrade in the future? If so, how long. Some of these suggestions may take a couple steps. My first thought was a DAC. Check out the Scott Nixon DAC at a good price which leaves more money for an additional piece.
...

Budget is $1,000 and I'd love it to come in under $800 if possible. I'd like to add more money for upgrades in the future, but probably not until next year. It's really selling all of this to my wife, who thinks I'm nuts to spend any money at all on audio, when a radio is fine. She doesn't hear a difference, so maybe I'm just making it all up.

Thanks for the feedback.

martyj · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 May 2003, 02:03 pm »

Quote from: maxwalrath

My first setup used a $300 Jolida 301, and was great. I don't think there's a better value in audio, and that's before switching preamp tubes.
Max

Max, I' ve been very intrigued by Jolida products. I like the reviews I've seen on the JD102B, but wonder if it's enough power and if spending the $550 on that will prevent me from upgrading to reach what the JD302B or 502B offers. They seem to offer more of an upgrade path.

Marty