[woodsyi]

Within the last 7 days, I had a chance to listen to 3 Squeezeboxes of varying mods and 4 different power supplies.  3 different power conditioners were also tried on the AC versions.  There were 5 of us listening on Saturday and 3 last night.  

Here is a list of gear compared.
 
SB3 with full RWA mod including the BPS  (courtesy of Dave G)
SB3 with RWA mod with stock AC switching PS  (courtesy of Den)
SB2 with full Bolder mod

Exact Power EP15A (courtesy of Robert57)
RSA Haley (courtesy of Robert57)
Felicia (courtesy of Gordy)

HP/Agilant Lab grade PS. http://auctions.planettest.com/java/jsp/product_partno6289A_invid10666_condR.htm
Bolder Ultimate PS (courtesy of Double Ugly)
RWA Battery (courtesy of Dave G)
Stock switcher (courtesy of Den)

Songs used to evaluate.

Blue Bossa, Ray Brown
Spanish Harlem, Rebecca Pidgeon
Sitting on the Dock of the Bay, instrumental on Focal demo disk (can't remember the name of the group)
Fields of Gold, Eva Cassidy
Something in the Way She Moves, James Taylor on KBCO
Side 1 of The Trinity Session (LP), Cowboy Junkies


For the associated gear, please check my signature.  My preamp (SWL9.0SE) is in the shop at the moment and I have my backup Von Gaylord LAD2 in the system.  On Saturday we had Gordy's SWL in the system for the listening session.  I am running the latest Slimserver but with version 15 firmware.  Bolder UPS did not arrive until Monday and RWA BPA was here only on Saturday.  Audiophile APS Purepower 1050 arrived with a glitch and could not be used.  A replacement is slowly reconnoitering the airtight US/Canadian border for safe crossing even as I write this. US homeland security is really doing a great job of keeping audio devices at bay. On all SBs only the analog out was used since my DAC is also in the shop for modification.  Perhaps we can do a digial out comparison later.  

Bolder modified SB2 with different Power supplies.

Stock switcher directly into the wall socket is adquate for background music -- flat, harsh and tiring.  Things improve quite a bit when the switcher is connected to a power conditioner.  EP15A gives a more neutral improvement accross the board where as RSA Haley gives a little more forward presentation.  It has more prat but at the expense of being a little bright.  Lab grade HP power supply gets the sound into "audiophile" realm.   It is much better than the stock into conditioner.  But it's one of those cases where you think it is doing everything very well until you hear something else that is better.  The better one is of course the Bolder ultimate power supply.  DU's unit also includes 2 silver Bybees in line.  Clear separation of instruments, well defined depth of sound stage, impact of the notes and the natural decay of strings, liquid rendering of vocal modulation and the blacker background all add up to a very engaging listening experience.  The Bolder modded SB2 with the UPS is a toe tapper and a sing alonger.  The combination gets you into the music.  

Red Wine modded SB3 with battery.

This unit was only available on Saturday when Bolder UPS was not available.  It went head to head with Bolder modified unit powered by my lab grade HP PS.  I had both synched playing the same music.  Both were connected using the same type interconnect.  Thus we were able to toggle back and forth instantly.  I also had a mike connected to a lab top using TruRTA level 4 software which gave a real time frequency response graph from 10 Hz to 50k Hz in 1/24 ocatave resolution.  At the instant of a switch, Bolder unit alsways gave the impression of being louder yet the overall volume decibel reading did not change.  Upon closer look, the graph showed that the Bolder rendition had more bass from about 600 Hz down.  Once we settled into each player, there really was not much of a difference in quality.  Both unit presented what I thought was an excellent sound at the time.  RWA unit may have been a tad bit darker and gentler whereas the Bolder had a bit more emphasis on the bass with more impact.  Opinions were divided as to which was preferred.

Red Wine modded SB3 without BPS vs. full Bolder modded SB2 using the same AC Power supply.  

From what I understand from Den, RWA mod is not to the highest level when BPA option is not selected.  So bare that in mind when you read the following.  Each player was plugged into the same power supply and played the same song in turn.  At each level, Bolder unit displayed more palpable bass and heft to the overall sound.  This particular RWA unit was leaner in comparison.  

This is what I found using my mostly tube based system.  The result I am sure would be different in a system using SS gear, which may change the balance.  Thanks everyone for coming over to listen and special thanks to Jim for letting me audition the UPS.

[bpape]

Definitely interested in your impressions.  Have heard the stock, stock with upgraded PS, and Full mod Boulder with full PS upgrade - not heard the Red Wine.

Bryan

[fly_fish_nz]

"From what I understand from Den, RWA mod is not to the highest level when BPA option is not selected."


Thanks for the feedback woodsyi, but I wasn't sure what "BPA" referred to above.

[Jon L]

I'm not clear if your comparisons involve SB analogue output or digital output (into what DAC)?

[Gordy]

I'm not clear if your comparisons involve SB analogue output or digital output (into what DAC)?

Hi Jon,

All of our the listening was done through the analogue outputs, Woodsyi's transport and dac were unavailable... visiting California!

[tianguis]

Gordy:

      How ya doin?  
      What were your impressions of the SB/Felicia combo?

Larry

[Gordy]

You woulda been proud Larry     I believe the general consensus was that the Felicia's provided the blackest background of the three, but was also a bit softer sounding, perhaps more rolled off or even tube like in it's presentation.  The Exact Power was clearly the more incisive (to steal Robert57's term!) of the three.  We ended up using the middle ground (neutral?) Running Springs for the SB comparisons. We also very briefly listened with no conditioning... very briefly. Pretty amazing how quickly one gets spoiled by line conditioning!

Considering all the cross contamination I must have with 6 unshielded transformers crammed into that box... none too shabby  

[woodsyi]

"From what I understand from Den, RWA mod is not to the highest level when BPA option is not selected."


Thanks for the feedback woodsyi, but I wasn't sure what "BPA" referred to above.

Sorry,  that was supposed to be BPS -- Battery Power Supply.

Pretty amazing how quickly one gets spoiled by line conditioning!

That's for sure.  You just don't know what was missing until you try listening to a system without power conditioning after you have had one in for a while.  

As for why power conditioning whether by way of power conditioner or better power supply affects the sound of SB or any other digital source, I don't know enough to say one way another.  Only thing I know is the empirical difference I hear.  In my limited knowledge, I would think a BPS away from AC "contamination" should work great since we are only talking 5 volt supply.  I talked to Wayne and we are not sure why his ultimate power supply seemingly works better than battery since he also tried battery.  I am sure Vinnie is trying to figure out what the reason for this is also.  Of course Vinnie's mod including the BPS cost less then Waynes if you figure in the ultimate power supply, but money can't be the only thing.  I hope that discussions here can lead to all of us getting a opportunity to improve SB2/3 sound at a more affordable cost by having companies improving their mods and thus offer a greater bang for the buck in further refinements.

[Vinnie R.]

I talked to Wayne and we are not sure why his ultimate power supply seemingly works better than battery since he also tried battery. I am sure Vinnie is trying to figure out what the reason for this is also. Of course Vinnie's mod including the BPS cost less then Waynes if you figure in the ultimate power supply, but money can't be the only thing..

Hi woodsyi,

I am not trying to figure out a reason why because I never even heard the Bolder Ultimate power supply, so I can't agree which sounds better to my ears    

A few things to keep in mind:

1) If the Red Wine modded SB3 had the older analog output mod (Auricaps), the level of it and the Bolder should be the same at ~1V.
 
2) The softer sound of the RWA modded SB3 is *most likely* because I use the Auricaps, while Bolder uses the Sonicaps.  These are two different sounding caps.  I have tried the Sonicaps but to me, they were too "in your face" sounding.  The Auricaps had a smoother tone that I preferred to the Sonicaps brighter tone, but this is all a matter of taste, system synergy, etc.  My guess is that if 100 users had a chance to listen to their modded SBs in their system with the ability to easily swap between these two brands of caps, half the of them would prefer one brand to the other.  

3) The RWA modded SB3 with the Auricap mod is no longer available.  I changed this and now use Black Gate NX-Hi-Q coupling caps and the Burr Brown OPA2604 opamp.  The max output voltage is now ~2.1Vrms, not ~1Vrms.  

4) I have also received a few emails asking about the current output of the battery supply vs an AC power supply.  First, the SB doesn't ever draw much more than 1A of current.  The internal dac chip draws milliamps (mA) and does not need lots of current.  Afterall, it is only driving a load that probably >10k, not 4-ohm load speakers  

The 12V, 10Ah SLA battery that I use can easily output > 10A if it was ever needed at still maintain 12V (of course it would discharge in an hour if supplying a constant 10A, but I'm just stating this to make it clear that it has LARGE output current).  The fact is that the SB will never draw much more than 1A, so going with SLA battery power is a very good option.... affordable, very clean and no need for power conditioning, power cords, etc.  This is why I decided to use it as an option for the SB mods (not to mention for some of my other products).  


Thanks for posting,

Vinnie

[Dr. Krull]

The 12V, 10Ah SLA battery that I use can easily output > 10A if it was ever needed at still maintain 12V (of course it would discharge in an hour if supplying a constant 10A, but I'm just stating this to make it clear that it has LARGE output current).

This is simply not true!    

The Amp Hour rating tells you how much amperage is available when discharged evenly over a 20 hour period. The amp hour rating is cumulative, so in order to know how many constant amps the battery will output for 20 hours, you have to divide the amp hour rating by 20. Example: If a battery has an amp hour rating of 10, dividing by 20 = 0.5. Such a battery can carry a 1/2 amp load for 20 hours before dropping to 10.5 volts. (10.5 volts is the fully discharged level, at which point the battery needs to be recharged.)

-Krull

[Vinnie R.]

This is simply not true!    

The Amp Hour rating tells you how much amperage is available when discharged evenly over a 20 hour period. The amp hour rating is cumulative, so in order to know how many constant amps the battery will output for 20 hours, you have to divide the amp hour rating by 20. Example: If a battery has an amp hour rating of 10, dividing by 20 = 0.5. Such a battery can carry a 1/2 amp load for 20 hours before dropping to 10.5 volts. (10.5 volts is the fully discharged level, at which point the battery needs to be recharged.)

-Krull

Good call, Krull.  Thanks.

I found your explanation here:
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/amp_hours.asp

Sorry for the confusion everyone....I started typing this morning before waiting for the coffee to kick in  

In any case, my point was that the 10Ah SLA battery that I use can supply LARGE current if needed (you can easily get 10A...test it for yourself with a 1-ohm resistor).

Best,

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

FWIW, I have seen Amp-Hour rating on batteries explained differently:

Here is an example:
http://www.virtualtechnologiesltd.com/FAQs/Battery%20FAQ.htm

Amp-Hour battery rating: This is a common battery rating of batteries. Amp-hour rating of battery capacity is calculated by multiplying the current (in amperes) by time (in hours) the current is drawn. Amp-hour battery rating is commonly used on sealed lead acid batteries used in UPS systems, emergency lights and camcorders.  For example: A battery which delivers 2 amperes for 20 hours would have a 40 amp-hour battery rating (2 * 20= 40).  

From reading online, it seems that some battery manufacturers obtain their Ah ratings differently (some don't use the 20-hour discharge period).
I guess it is best to check the battery spec sheet if you are concerned with how they rate their batteries.

Based on my testing of my SB battery power supply, the fully charged battery can power a wireless SB between 6 and 7 hours (varies based on the SB brightness setting) before the voltage drops to 12V.  I do not recommend discharging below 12V.

Cheers!

[Dr. Krull]

In any case, my point was that the 10Ah SLA battery that I use can supply LARGE current if needed (you can easily get 10A...test it for yourself with a 1-ohm resistor).

I would highly recommend that people not try this.  Shorting out a lead acid battery can cause it to explode.  (A 1 ohm resistor is in essence a short circuit).  

Battery explosion

With car batteries, explosions are most likely to occur when a short circuit generates very large currents. A short circuit malfunction in a battery placed in parallel with other batteries ("jumped") can cause its neighbour to discharge its maximum current into the faulty cell, leading to overheating and possible explosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(electricity)

-Krull

[woodsyi]

Thanks for chiming in Vinnie.  I know for a fact that my current meter does not go over .8 amp when I play.  But could there be a headroom issue on transients for batteries?  Since all things have pros and cons, is the con on the battery somehow to do with slew rate? If so, what can be done to improve it?

[Vinnie R.]

II would highly recommend that people not try this. Shorting out a lead acid battery can cause it to explode. (A 1 ohm resistor is in essence a short circuit).  

Yes, do NOT try this at home.  

Again, my point is that large currents can be generated with SLA.

'Nuff said

[Vinnie R.]

Thanks for chiming in Vinnie.  I know for a fact that my current meter does not go over .8 amp when I play.  But could there be a headroom issue on transients for batteries?  Since all things have pros and cons, is the con on the battery somehow to do with slew rate? If so, what can be done to improve it?

Hi Woodsyi,

Even during transients in the music, it is very doubtful that the SB would be drawing any considerable amount of current.  Again, it is the dac that is converting the digital to the analog signal that is then sent to your amp (or preamp).  The max output voltage of the dac is approx 1Vrms, and I doubt that you are connecting the SB to a device that has an input impedance that is lower than, say, 5k.  

I=V/R, so we're dealing with less than 1mA (less than .001A) rms per channel....this nothing compared to what the rest of the SB draws.

Since all things have pros and cons, is the con on the battery somehow to do with slew rate

The con with SLA battery power is that you cannot leave it on all the time (the need to recharge), and that if you deep discharge them (forgetting to turn it off overnight), you will kill the battery.  In other words, battery power requires that the user powers down the unit to charge the battery after a listening session, and implements careful charging habits.

In terms of sound quality when powering the SB, I have found SLA power to be all pro and no con.  

Best,

Vinnie

[Dr. Krull]

In terms of sound quality when powering the SB, I have found SLA power to be all pro and no con.

I have come to the opposite conclusion, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Again, my point is that large currents can be generated with SLA.

'Nuff said

In the future please make your point by providing correct and non-hazardous information.  Some people may take your "expert" opinion as gospel and hurt themselves in the process.  

-Krull

[Vinnie R.]

Some people may take your "expert" opinion as gospel and hurt themselves in the process.  
 -Krull

No they won't, Krull.  We all know that you are the only "true expert" here, doctor.  

Thank you,

[yo2tup]

very nice thread.

i'm curious of what the results would be with the digital only mods using the sb as a transport.

[mcgsxr]

I know that several people have commented positively in using a modded SB as you suggest - I know that Scott F wrote two articles recently, and included some references to using it this way.

I will try that, when I am finished breaking in the analog portion of the modded SB3 I have.

I can try the digital output into a Panny receiver I have, and try two different Bolder PS options too, when the second arrives.

I will let you know,