[Ernest]

How do I get it?  I just bought a 2006 VW Jetta 2.5 (which I love) and I want to sell off what little audio equipment I have (and never use) and put something awesome in my car.  But I've never looked into car audio before so am rather clueless beyond replacing everything with higher quality components.  Are any of you experienced with this and can give me some advice?  I want something that will sound very good to me as an audiophile, and not a boom box on wheels.  But I want it to use my existing radio which I really like and has built-in satellite support.  And I don't want to mess up the interior at all.

Thanks for any help you can give!

Ernest

[kfr01]

Components up front in kick panels.  Spend as much as you can afford on these.

A nice 2-channel amplifier or a pair of mono blocks.  

A nice mono-block amplifier to power the subwoofer.  

A single 10" sub in a small sealed box.

Crossover to/from the sub/components around 80hz.

Also, while you like your current radio, it won't exactly be an "audiophile" transport / preamp.  Look into Eclipse for a new deck.

I use:
Eclipse CD8443 cd player, Mb Quart PCE 216 6.5" Components, (2) Xtant 1.1i mono blocks (front amps), and an Image Dynamics IDQ-10 D2 V.2 driven by a Xtant A6001 subwoofer amplifier.

I've been pretty happy with it.  

Were I to rebuild right now, I would look at a new 10" Adire Brahma subwoofer, RE XXX Components, the same amplifiers I have now, and whatever the new top of the line Eclipse deck is...

Oh, and disconnect all the other speakers in your car.

[JRace]

Go to your local car audio shops. Ask to see their install books and talk to the staff. If you like what you see and the staff is good to deal with ask for their advice.

Also many new aftermarket decks support sat radio. However the new decks are quite good, they just require aditional equipment to integrate with the new amps.

I also agree to get kickpanels for your front stage.

[hmen]

What are kick panels?

[hmen]

What are kick panels?

[kfr01]

What are kick panels?

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-3SrV7fbqhyi/learningcenter/car/speakers_component_installation_options.html

[JRace]

What are kick panels?

There are two speakers in that pic. The one on the left is mounted in the kick panel area. The right is mounted in the door.

[kfr01]

Yep.  Those low, far locations are the only way to go if you want some decent imaging in car without some digital processing.

[Scott F.]

You can spend as much if not more on a true audiophile system for a car. The very first thing that you need to check is whether or not you can remove your existing head unit (the stereo) and retain all of the functions in your car.

Let me give you an example. My Cadillac SLS has the fuel pump and the OnStar system that runs directly through the head unit. That meant I can't remove it for something better.

The next thing you need to find out (assuming your head unit can be removed) is if your head unit is integrated or has the amps separated and tucked someplace else in the vehicle. I've seen amps under the console, in the trunk, behind the glove box and under the seats.

The reason I bring this up is because most of the current head units get bolted in and then the installer plugs in a adaptive wiring harness that still has the existing amps in your circuitry. The vast majority of the existing amps will limit your overall power and will definately effect the final sound (since you are running signal through them). You can have the existing amps bypassed.

You need whomever installs your new system to run new speaker wires to each of your new speakers. You don't want to re-use the factory wiring because it sounds pretty dreadful. Though you can do an active crossover mounted in the trunk, most decent head units now come with a crossover built in. In turn, you will need a head unit with at least a single pair of pre outs rated at somewhere near 6 volts (2 volts won't cut it). This insures ample voltage to drive a (near) 20' pair of interconnects going to your sub amp in the trunck.

The size of your sub (and enclosure) will depend on the size of your trunk.  There are some programs out there that will simulate the frequency response in the cab based upon the size of the sub, size of the enclosure, size of the truck (in cu ft) and the size of the cab. Sorry, I don't remember the links. The Deware site is a great place to start. They make some killer sub enclosures for cars. Look at the Wicked One over there.

Everything that holds true for home audio holds true for cars. You need to use good speaker wire, good (shielded) interconnects, power filtration and storage. Finally, you need to pick a quality head unit. Clarion makes nice sounding, affordable head units. Forget about the recorders, hard drives and DVD players in the head units. Go for the best 2 channel (only) unit they offer.

Speakers are obviously crucial. To compensate for lower power head units (usually 40wpc) you need to pay close attention to the efficiency of the speakers. You may have to dig for those specs but they do exist (somewhre). If you can find a decent sounding pair that sits around 90db, go for them. Even though the manufacturers state that the head units are rated at 45x4 when you bench them, they usually come out between 15 and 20wpc rms so caviat emptor.

If you go after speaker separates (separate driver, tweeter and crossover) pay very close attention to the quality of the crossover parts. Make sure they don't use electrolytic capacitors. They should use films or better yet metallized polys. Iron core inductors (coils) will saturate at high volumes and cause distortion. Try to find air cores. Cement resistors suck but unfortunately everybody uses them. Stear clear of those add on super tweeters (ick).

A simpler pair of coax speakers can sound pretty darned good if you swap out the cap on the tweeter (they usually run the driver full range), honest.

Bottom line, to do a midlevel audiophile system (right) in a car you are talking in the neighborhood of $2 - $3k.

I went through all of this not too awful long ago. I schooled myself on all the pieces and parts. I had planned on a Nakamichi passive head unit, the Bulter 4 channel (a true 4x50rms) with the tube drivers, a quad of MB Quartz speakers, a Adire Shiva sub and a decent sub amp. Installed with all new wiring, dynamat, interconnects, etc, I was looking at almost $6k. Then I found out I couldn't remove my head unit.

Guess what, I'm still listening to the shitty assed Bose system. Well, at least now I've got Sirius.  

Hope that helps.

[kfr01]

True, it can get expensive... fast.  Like home audio though, using some strategy when buying can reduce the pain.

Mine cost ~$1600.  I was able to do this by calling stores in the area and asking for last year's models (car audio lines change very rapidly), demo units, and buying my amplifiers direct from Xtant's factory warehouse refurbed.  

This strategy shaved at least $1k off the price.

I suggest reading http://www.bcae1.com/

http://www.knukonceptz.com/ provides cheap interconnects, speaker, and power wire and accessories.  

Also, I don't believe in getting crazy with expensive amplifiers in car.  Given the high noise floor in cars, I just don't think it makes any sense to spend more than a few hundred per channel.  

The one thing you do need is more than the power a regular head unit can provide (because of the high noise floor of the car).

The one low cost solution would be a new Panasonic deck.  They have digital amplification in a couple of their head units; no need for an external amp.

Also, I'm generally a big fan of class d or t all around in car.  Given the high noise floor, acoustic complexity of the car, and the need to stay clear of your alternator's amp rating, efficient amplifiers make all the sense in the world in car.

[Folsom]

Talking to a local place, or buying from crutchfield is about as inteligent as kicking yourself in the nuts....

www.elitecaraudio.com there are people there that can actually help you. Just let them know you are interest in high SQ. The hard part is weeding out the morons from the people that know what they are talking about..... If you get some recommendations I would be happy to mention if they are any good or not.

[kfr01]

Talking to a local place, or buying from crutchfield is about as inteligent as kicking yourself in the nuts....

First, local places have been good to me.  Local places are the only way to get 3-year warranties and theft protection on Eclipse decks.  Most of the "dealers" you find online are not authorized to carry the products they peddle.  

Second, couldn't you find a nicer way to express your opinion?  It was less than respectful or kind to imply that my advice is as intelligent as kicking yourself in the nuts.

I thought this board was above that sort of communication.

[westend]

Agreeder withthe above^. You gotta' realize:different is not bad. Crutchfield would not be my choice for buying but for the novice it can be educational. I agree with most posted here as to choices. In addition, the headunit that came with your car is not audiophile material. It's functionality will not let it be such. You should replace it with a HU that has decent Burr Brown DAC's. I have a Pioneer Premier 860 and it has served me well. The car audio environment makes it  difficult to achieve a good sound. Driver positioning makes for uneven speaker pathlengths and early reflections from glass, steel, vinyl, etc. don't yield good results. A lot of this can be dealt with by time alignment and EQ. There are a plethora of choices out there for speakers and amps so I won't offer any choices. One good spot to lurk at is www.diymobileaudio.com.. The guys over there are knowledgable and are purchasing some of the better gear. Good luck with the install.

[Bob Wilcox]

Ernest

In my last car, I replaced the factory deck with an Eclipse which was the cleanest sounding I found. Unfortunatley, it had a tendency to damage discs.

I also purchased drop-in Kenwood Excelon dual mag speakers for the rear deck and set the fader balance to favor the rears. I chose these over expensive more component speakers and they were very efficient and had fairly low bass. I did not buy door speakers because they all sounded lousy to me  - even the pricey ones.

After I bought my present car, I checked out decks and this time the Kenwood Excelon decks edged out the Eclipse models but I did not buy one. After replacing the rear deck speakers again with Kenwood Excelons, the sound improved enough that I decided to pass on a new deck.

Crutchfield is a good source for learning what will fit your car and tends to carry complete product lines where local stores will carry select models.

Bob

[Scott F.]

Talking to a local place, or buying from crutchfield is about as inteligent as kicking yourself in the nuts....

www.elitecaraudio.com there are people there that can actually help you. Just let them know you are interest in high SQ. The hard part is weeding out the morons from the people that know what they are talking about..... If you get some recommendations I would be happy to mention if they are any good or not.

I have to disagree with several things you stated.

Not all local shops are bad. The ones that I found (here in St Louis) that were  just pushing gear were the Big Box stores (Best Buy, Circuit City, Ultimate ELectronics). I have a feeling that it is because of teh higher turnover of the sales and install staff.

On the other hand a local shop called The Sound Room were extremely helpful. They carried some relatively high end 12 volt gear. The sales and install guys had good ears and an eye on budget. They knew their stuff and pointed me to a few websites to research some more before I tried to make my purchase.



Destroyer, you really need to engage your brain before you start typing. That or re-read your posts before you push the submit button. The way your post reads,

"Talking to a local place, or buying from crutchfield is about as inteligent as kicking yourself in the nuts...." = no local place no matter how knowledgable they are could possibly help. Internet forums are the only source of information.....sometimes.....depending on who answers......and whether or not they are a moron...... as if you can tell that from thier moniker....... but maybe you need to consult a medium to decipher shit from Shinola...... if not revert back to bashing yourself in the balls

"there are people there that can actually help you." = nobody here at AC can help because we don't know what we are talking about

"If you get some recommendations I would be happy to mention if they are any good or not" = you are an expert but can't be bothered to type an answer, in turn you'd rather just thread crap.

[mcgsxr]

I find car audio to be a different experience - period.  I have had friends in the industry for years, and have been exposed to systems that cost nearly as much as some of the home kit I see around here.

I had a system in my BMW hatch a few years ago, that cost around 3K installed.

JL components in the doors, 12 inch sealed Fosgate sub (their 2nd from the top in their lineup), and 2 amps - 1 2 channel Memphis audio (2x75wpc), and 1 mono (1x500wpc) sub amp from Memphis.

Good sound.  Not great, nowhere near what can be achieved in the home for the mids and highs, but then again the bass was stupendous - tight, fast, powerful - ruined me for home bass, on the budget I can assign to audio...

So, I would say that, like everything, you can drastically improve your car audio experience on a budget of around 1-2K, or you can get good sound for that plus another 1-2K, or you can invest 5-10K and see what happens.

I have never heard a great soundstage in any car, but have been happy with the sound in several.

I recently upgraded the stock system in my 94 Accord.  Panasonic deck, JL separates in the doors, JL 6x9's in the back deck, deck power running it all.

Better than stock, but garbage compared to the BMW system I had, and garbage compared to the home system I use today, that costs about the same!

In the end, the strange acoustics in cars, with highly reflective and highly absorbative materials found so closely, coupled with the off-center seating, coupled with the real need to put the speakers down by your feet...

It can sound good, but I have yet to hear fantastic - not saying it cannot be done, but saying it gets expensive rapidly - hmmn, that reminds me of home audio for the most part too!

I found a local shop in Burlington - Lee at Radioactive is a great guy, and will work with the budget that you present, to try to hit the sound that you want.

Good luck, I would leverage local folks for a head unit and install, but I would be more than happy to buy online for subs and separates - just my approach...

[Folsom]

I will say what ever I want. I have never been to a local place with fair prices or knowledgable people..... People that are SERIOUS into car audio pretty much stay away from any place like Car Toys or what ever.

There is an ENTIRE world of car audio, much like High End audio that this forum is for....

Sure we could of all walked into Circuit City and purchased things because the person seem to know what they were talking about, but no we investigated into a realm of truely beautiful equipment for truely beautiful sound.

You want a few recommendations?

First off you can get items with warrenty on the internet....

People never seem to listen to you when you suggestion car audio, they go off and find ten thousand things and ask you about them after you recommend some thing..... I have been helping people for awhile with finding car audio parts...

A few suggestions

Head Unit:
Eclipse CD4000 or better, Eclipse's better end models have been good for some time

Nakamichi units, these are probably my one of my favorites because they are so very simple, there is no need for most of the junk that Pioneers come with....

Pioneer, personally to much crap in them, but 8600+ models would probably work out

If you want the best there is it would be Denon's top one, but they are not easy to get. The unit cost $1000+, and is kind of an import item.

Amplifiers:

NEVER bother to power speakers of the deck, they put out like 18-20wRMS on a good day. The only way to get any kind of midbass from them is with really efficient speakers rated for 18-20-wRMS that are easy to drive. They also sound terrible...

Options....

Go with a two channel for a componet setup in the front of the car (perpheriably in kick panels if avalible)

Go with a four channel and skip the crossover that was included with componets, or buy your own drivers and forget about crossover

Things not to do..... Rear speakers are worthless, you destroy any attibute of a soundstage that you do not get much of to begin with. The clarity of the music will be DESTRYOED by using rear and front speakers. If you have just rear speakers it works, but it does not sound very good at all.

Good amplifiers...

Arc Audio makes good amplifiers
Brax makes some of the best
Butler Audio makes tube amplifiers
Genesis makes some good stuff
Tru makes some very nice stuff
JL's better line
Zapco has rather nice ones as well

Speakers:

Always go for componets unless you select your own drivers

Alpine Type X is real nice for a cheap componet set

Rainbow Speakers, different lines all the way up to some of the best in the world

Focal makes some really nice componet sets

MB Quart's Q series is known to be good

Subwoofers:
Image Dynamics
Adire
RE
Focal

When choosing a subwoofer do you want SQ or SPL? How much room do you have?


Other ideas.... Sound deadening in lots of places!

[kfr01]

I will say what ever I want.

That's fine.  You obviously have a lot to add.  Just please try to be nice when you say it.    

Cheers!