[fajimr]

Hi everyone....

here is my version of 'does size matter'  

I find myself in a position where I am moving from a house to an apartment in downtown Montreal.  One of my criteria being the size of the living room/ listening room... a place I really like has a small living room (wood floors with area rug, plaster walls, 9ft ceilings)).. approx 10ft by 20ft  with a hall running through the back end of it(i.e. the back end of the room is more open).  I will be using my AKSA 55N+ amp (as soon as I finishing testing it), Ellis 1801b speakers (med size monitors), and a CD source.  I listen to mainly jazz, acoustical, voice...

Do you think that putting my system in such a small space will affect the sound that much?  The other apt option I have is a much larger open concept apartment with integrated kitchen/linging/dinning room...

any opinions, ideas, rants, etc would be appreciated.  Since I am just finishing my first DIY project, I hope to give it a good home  

[Glenn K]

not sure what your room size was, but yes anytime that you chance rooms it will sound different.. Can you make a room that size sound good? YES, putting acoustic treatment in that room size will work fine..

Glenn

[PhilNYC]

a place I really like has a small living room (wood floors with area rug, plaster walls, 9ft ceilings)).. approx 10ft by 20ft  with a hall running through the back end of it...

All the New Yorkers here are drooling at how huge this room is...

[fajimr]

not sure what your room size was, but yes anytime that you chance rooms it will sound different.. Can you make a room that size sound good? YES, putting acoustic treatment in that room size will work fine..

interesting Glenn... I'll do a search and see what I can find about treating smaller rooms in this circle.  Are you talking about something similar to your products?  They look like they are reasonably priced solution.  thanks jim

[JLM]

The room size isn't so bad at all, but the ratio of room dimensions could product a nightmare as height equals width and the length is twice of them.  Therefore standing waves 220 Hz, 110 Hz, 55 Hz, and 27 Hz should be there in spades.

[kyyuan]

a place I really like has a small living room (wood floors with area rug, plaster walls, 9ft ceilings)).. approx 10ft by 20ft  with a hall running through the back end of it...

All the New Yorkers here are drooling at how huge this room is...

yes, but... aren't New Yorkers always drooling over something?  

(we Texans/Utahns only drool for competent/helpful audio dealers   )

Ken

[Glenn K]

The room size isn't so bad at all, but the ratio of room dimensions could product a nightmare as height equals width and the length is twice of them.  Therefore standing waves 220 Hz, 110 Hz, 55 Hz, and 27 Hz should be there in spades.

Yea I saw that to, but I was hoping he was guessing and that he did no take into account the back opens up.. Hope I am right on guessing on that..

Glenn

[skrivis]

Hi everyone....

here is my version of 'does size matter'  

I find myself in a position where I am moving from a house to an apartment in downtown Montreal.  One of my criteria being the size of the living room/ listening room... a place I really like has a small living room (wood floors with area rug, plaster walls, 9ft ceilings)).. approx 10ft by 20ft  with a hall running through the back end of it(i.e. the back end of the room is more open).  I will be using my AKSA 55N+ amp (as soon as I finishi ...

So you like the smaller place better than the larger one?

A bigger room is normally better. But you knew that.

The 1801s are still fairly small speakers, so they should be most at home in small to medium rooms. I'd think they'd do well in either apartment.

I think you should choose the apartment that you like the best. You're going to be doing more than just listening to your speakers in it, after all. If you're getting some effects from the room, then you can get creative with room treatments and it shouldn't be too bad.

It's not like you're buying a house. I guess you could always move when the lease is up if it's really bad.

Oh, one more thing: Maybe it's also a good time to get a nice pair of headphones, like the Grado ones. There may be times when you want to listen and your neighbors don't. Headphones make for happy neighbors.

I like the Grado Sr-80s...

[fajimr]

The room size isn't so bad at all, but the ratio of room dimensions could product a nightmare as height equals width and the length is twice of them.  Therefore standing waves 220 Hz, 110 Hz, 55 Hz, and 27 Hz should be there in spades.

o.k. I see this as being a much more complex issue than size.. I don't really understand what it means but I will have  look through older posts to see what i can learn.  Is there a primer anywhere (a sticky might be nice)... in any case, once I find the place I want, I plan on talking to the experts to get some concrete advice and maybe some of their products, too... thanks all

[fajimr]

(we Texans/Utahns only drool for competent/helpful audio dealers   )

hey ken.. I guess I should call myself a Montrealer/Utahn having just moved from Logan... where I had plenty of space- except maybe not in the eyes of a texan... it is all relative isn't it  

[fajimr]

Yea I saw that to, but I was hoping he was guessing and that he did no take into account the back opens up.. Hope I am right on guessing on that..

Glenn I was just guessing based on a first look and not taking much into account except the relative size.  

I'm just glad to know that it is workable and a solution would be relatively easy to find     If people had said that I would have a lot of problems or that I wouldn't be able to squeez out good sound from my system, I would have seriously rethought getting the place.

[kyyuan]

(we Texans/Utahns only drool for competent/helpful audio dealers   )

hey ken.. I guess I should call myself a Montrealer/Utahn having just moved from Logan... where I had plenty of space- except maybe not in the eyes of a texan... it is all relative isn't it  

Wow...Logan.  I had not met anyone from Logan, via the web, until now.  I grew up in Ogden, but spent most of my Utah days in SLC.  I miss the mountains and the "dry" air.

Dallas/Fort Worth is what I call "geographically challenged."

[PhilNYC]

I miss the mountains and the "dry" air.

Dallas/Fort Worth is what I call "geographically challenged."

Isn't there something about sound traveling better through humid air?  

[Dusty Chalk]

Actually, I think we need more information to give you better advice.  Which room is more "symmetrical"?  I think that might end up being a bigger issue.  I.E. in which room will you have more issues just trying to set up your equipment in such a way that one of your speakers isn't against a wall, or your listening position isn't against a glass door on one side and a wide open hallway on the other?  Those end up being more insurmountable problems than sheer size (although if 10x20 is accurate, you will have problems, and probably need serious room treatment).

[kyyuan]

Isn't there something about sound traveling better through humid air?  

Nope...but temperature and elevation will have some effect, at least with regard to speed.  Plus,...

in a drier/cooler environment, like Utah, air conditioning won't kick-in quite as frequently, which adds less ambient noise to the listening environment.  Thus, the level of "transparency" and low-level "detail" will be improved.  This is acoording to the Audio Handbook from Ken.  

However, the "wide open" space of Texas might provide an advantage in lack-of-first-reflection point.  

Ok...enough clowning around.  Back to work.

Ken

[fajimr]

Actually, I think we need more information to give you better advice.  .... (although if 10x20 is accurate, you will have problems, and probably need serious room treatment).

thanks dusty chalk... o.k. I just got the dimensions from the owner.  

The room dimensions are 9' 6"  by  14' 9"  with 9' 10" high ceilings.  At the 'far' closed end of the room (where the system and speakers would be) there is a medium size window.  At the other end of the room a 4 foot wide hallway runs through from the front door to the kitchen (this is part of the 14'9" length which means the enclosed room would be about 9 x 10).  Does this make sense?

let's see if I can't draw this:  NOPE the formatting came out all wrong...

  What do you mean by 'serious' treatment.  I am renting remember and probably couldn't do too much to the place.

thanks

[fajimr]

Wow...Logan.  I had not met anyone from Logan, via the web, until now.  I grew up in Ogden, but spent most of my Utah days in SLC.  I miss the mountains and the "dry" air.

Dallas/Fort Worth is what I call "geographically challenged."

ahhhh yes, the mountains.....  there are "mountains" here... for skiing what they lack in the size they make up in the difficult conditions (read 'ice')

[Ethan Winer]

Jim,

> The room dimensions are 9' 6" by 14' 9" with 9' 10" high ceilings <

In that case the "problem" frequencies are those related to the similar 9 foot +/- dimensions. This means the room will resonate at those frequencies, and resonate twice as loudly at frequencies where two dimensions are the same or similar. At resonance there's a boost in the low frequency response (a peak), and also an artificially extended decay called "ringing." This makes certain bass notes sustain longer than they should. But an open back room is a good thing, because that reduces one of those resonances.

> What do you mean by 'serious' treatment. <

The solution to all low frequency room problems is bass traps. The more you add, the flatter and tighter (less resonance) the room will be. It's impossible to make any room perfectly flat, but you can definitely go from "This is terrible" to "Wow, fabuolus!"

> Is there a primer anywhere <

See my Acoustics FAQ:

www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

It's a fair amount to read, but it explains all the basics of room acoustics and treatment in detail and with no math.

--Ethan

[fajimr]

THANKS Ethan..

you weren't joking... I just printed out 47 pages

I'll have a read and see what I can learn!!

[Glenn K]

THANKS Ethan..

you weren't joking... I just printed out 47 pages

I'll have a read and see what I can learn!!

Well worth the read though..