Sercret Bryston Mod?

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HPower

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Sercret Bryston Mod?
« on: 23 Feb 2006, 02:28 pm »
I came across this thread on the Canuck Audio Mart board.

Link,  http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2770

The original poster doesn't seem willing to give to much info about his "mod",
 other than how much it costs.
There are some reputable mod people out there, like "The Parts Connection".
They at least outline and explain their changes and even on some products,
 still comply to the manufactures warranty.
 
James, have you heard of this guy?
If a Bryston is moddified, what happens to your warranty coverage?

Levi

Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Feb 2006, 03:58 pm »
This is too good to be true.

Quote
The basic design of old and new Bryston amplifiers is the same.

They are differential amplifiers in a symmetry of positive and negative rail.

Sorry for the designers at the Bryston, but I have to say that they missed something very important to get the optimal performance out of a differential amplifier.

I have seen many design mistakes from many highly regarded brand name of amplifiers. Nothing is perfect, everybody makes mistakes! I may not be an overally better engineer than Bryston's but I still know something better than them. Sometimes things can get better by someone unexpected.

The mod is not related to improvement of components like capacitors or modification of component values but design influences key characteristics of a differential amplifier.

I did same mods for some customers of mine and actually one of them even blamed me for not having recommended the mod earlier.
All of them became very happy and believed the mod as one of the best decisions they ever made.

I don't think you can lose more than $70-$140 at WORST.

James Tanner

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Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Feb 2006, 05:59 pm »
My only concern is that without us having a look at the "mod" and approving the changes the Warranty would be voided.

james

Levi

Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Feb 2006, 06:10 pm »
It looks like you send the amp in and you will never see it again. :nono:

James Tanner

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Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Feb 2006, 08:18 pm »
I cannot respond definitively to the claims made by Canuck Audio Mart about the mods they are selling for Bryston amplifiers, since the author does not specify what the mods are, though he does suggest that it is in connection with the input differential stage.  Bryston amplifiers use a proprietary input stage, and while it is possible to increase the complexity of this stage to more closely emulate 'textbook' approaches, Bryston's circuitry departs from standard 'textbook' practice for good reasons, and we generally do not recommend modifications to our circuitry.
 
   If a modification causes damage to a Bryston product, that damage is not covered by warranty, and the product will need to be returned to factory spec before warranty coverage is reinstated.
 
 
Sincerely,
Chris Russell
Bryston Ltd.

srb

Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Feb 2006, 08:57 pm »
Quote
...an overally better engineer than Bryston's but I still know something better than them.


The question is...

is he really OVERALLY better?

"I'd tell you something about the mod, but then I'd have to kill you." :roll:

Sounds like snake oil to me.

minbean

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Aug 2013, 06:01 pm »
Following is a testimonial from someone who had his Bryston 4B modded.  :thumb:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I  have owned my Bryston 4BST amplifier for 14 years and have generally been satisfied with it. The amplifier has been updated and improved three times since I bought it. I called Bryston, and they do not update this model. Due to the 20 year warranty and a solid design, you really don't see much online about modifying the Bryston.

I ran across a forum that discussed a modification done by Minsoo Kim, Master Technician at Pure Sound In Vancouver, to the differential input amplifier stage Bryston uses. It replaces resistors used in this stage with constant current sources. This was quite different from the common cap, resistor, HEXFRED, and wire mods I commonly see.  Mr. Kim was adamant about the significant improvement it made to the amplifier. If someone did not like the results, he would change it back to the original condition at minimal cost, not leaving a trace of the modification.

I 'm not the kind of person who just takes someones word for it. I did quite a bit of research online and discovered that using constant current sources is the optimal  way to run a differential amplifier. Minsoo Kim's claim was backed up by information on major  university websites, as well as papers from major semiconductor companies.. It's solid engineering. An optimized differential amplifier reduces noise, second harmonic distortion and can improve dynamic range to a limited extent.

I called Minsoo Kim and asked him about the cost of  the modification. It was very reasonable. Mr. Kim's customers seemed very pleased. Customers had high praise for  his abilities. There were no posts about his modified amplifiers exploding or bursting into flames. I decide to ship my 4BST to Pure Sound and get the modification.

I have some words of warning to those who would consider this modification. I mentioned installing constant current sources to an engineer I spoke to. He said the person doing this has to really know what they are doing or very poor results may be obtained which can reduce the sound quality of the amplifier or worse. Mr. Kim is a Master technician. He can fix amplifiers without using a schematic. He has designed his own amplifier using constant current sources in the differential amplifier input stage. He has over 30 years experience with audio electronics. I will only endorse Minsoo Kim to do this modification. Hire someone else at your own risk.

I have over 150 hours of constant operation on my modified amplifier. There are no clicks, pops, buzzes, smells or anything abnormal I have observed in the Modified amplifier. It does look better as Mr. Kim cleaned it thoroughly.

The modification has only resulted in positives related to sound quality and are as follows

1. Listening Fatigue has all but eliminated. This is huge. I own modified Yamaha NS-1000Ms with the famous or infamous Beryllium dome drivers. The speaker has great clarity, but with the wrong associated equipment and crossover caps this speaker will drive you out of the room. I can listen for hours with no fatigue. No brightness. Amazing.   

2. Far less grain. Smoother sounding. The grainy haze that permeated the sound stage is gone. There is a more "airy"  presentation which adds much to the realism of the sound.

3. Less Congested sounding with less smearing. I am hearing details I have not heard before because it keeps all the different sounds separate. Much better real sounding decay, especially on piano. Everything is there. One instrument of higher volume does not cover up the other sounds of lower volume.

4. The general character of the amp remains unchanged, but there are differences. Piano sounds more solid with more low frequency impact. Plucked strings have more real texture.  More solid and deeper low frequency drum sound. synthesizer are much more clearly presented, like hearing them for the first time. Ambient information is clearer, especially on something like Cowboy Junkies: The Trinity Session. There is an increase in what Srajen Ybaen calls color saturation, making voices and instruments sound more real.

5. Generally more clarity, however the clarity does not jump out and grab your attention. It is evenly and naturally presented throughout the frequency  range. It is not "HiFi" sounding.

6. More subjective ease to the presentation. The amplifier never sounds strained or rough.

7. Mod provides outstanding value for the money.

8. I now just listen to, and enjoy the music. It just sounds good.

9. Comparisons. I've been out of the market way too long to say. I think it sounds better than the Threshold Stasis ClassA amps I sold during college. That's all I can say.

I think that Bryston is a great company. They have well deserved reputation for outstanding customer service, and equipment that is great sounding and extremely reliable. I have never regretted my purchase of the 4BST. My past interactions with James Tanner and Christopher Russell have been excellent. I asked Chris Russell one time about HEXFRED diodes in amplifier power supplies. He procured them, installed them in an amplifier, tested and listened to the amplifier, and then called me with a report. How many companies would do that for a customer? Zero, Nada, Nil, None. That's the kind of company Bryston is.

Minsoo Kim regards Bryston as an excellent amplifier design. He only disagrees on one thing, being the absence of constant current sources in the differential amplifier input stage. Mr. Kim has proved his point to me. The improvement is undeniable. With all due respect to James Tanner, Christopher Russell, Stuart Taylor, and rest of the great people at Bryston, I think that current sources in the differential input amplifier stage may deserve a second look.

Laundrew

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Aug 2013, 09:23 pm »
For some strange and unexplained reason, this came directly to mind after reading about the "secret mod."  :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLTb3cLjHM4&nomobile=1

Be well...

drummermitchell

Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #8 on: 18 Aug 2013, 12:12 am »
Those CAM posts were in 06,that would be the SST days,a bit has changed since them.

minbean

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #9 on: 18 Aug 2013, 02:38 am »
Those CAM posts were in 06,that would be the SST days,a bit has changed since them.

The front end of SST2 is not much different than SST and there is no constant current source.

http://bryston.com/pages/technical.html

James Tanner

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #10 on: 18 Aug 2013, 12:16 pm »
From Engineering:

We used constant current sources in the input stage very early in the evolution of the amps.

We switched away from them because we found that because they introduce more junction capacitance into the input section, they increase the higher harmonics in the distortion profile. That's why we have not used them for a long time.

However, I would encourage the customer to have us test the amp, (at N/C), to compare the original performance with the modded performance.


cwr

brucek

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #11 on: 18 Aug 2013, 01:08 pm »
.......  However, I would encourage the customer to have us test the amp, (at N/C), to compare the original performance with the modded performance.

Yeah, my first thought when I read this is that he's introduced distortion into the path, and that he and perhaps others are partial to the sound of that distortion. Nothing wrong with that - tube lovers live with an enormous amount of distortion that they happen to prefer.

The very low THD of the ST and subsequent versions is so very low, that to produce reports of ...Smoother sounding......Grainy haze that permeated the sound stage is gone......There is a more "airy" presentation......Less Congested sounding......Less smearing......Real sounding decay......Plucked strings have more real texture......Ambient information is clearer......Generally more clarity......It is not "HiFi" sounding......More subjective ease to the presentation..., I imagine the THD has taken quite a hit.

You'd have to know the before and after THD at all frequencies and power levels to make any realistic assessment of the modification.

brucek

Laundrew

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #12 on: 18 Aug 2013, 01:29 pm »
Personally, the only individuals I would let touch my amplifiers are the fine folks at Bryston - after all, they have been designing, constructing and servicing these wonderful machines for decades. Their dedication to service and detail is simply second to none and this has been demonstrated time and time again by James and his participation in this Circle. It is extremely important for me to know that if my Beasties ever require service, I will not be let down by the Bryston team.

We have had numerous discussions on this Circle with respect to "diminishing returns" on high end equipment and have mostly agreed that you do not get a huge increase in audio performance by simply spending tens of thousands more on audio gear - so at the end of the day, how much will a modification increase performance?

Would you be comfortable shipping off your gear to some entity other than Bryston?

Be well...


minbean

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #13 on: 18 Aug 2013, 02:30 pm »

from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_amplifier
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"The quiescent current has to be constant to ensure constant collector voltages at common mode. This requirement is not so important in the case of a differential output since the two collector voltages will vary simultaneously but their difference (the output voltage) will not vary; only the output range will decrease. But in the case of a single-ended output, it is extremely important to keep a constant current since the output collector voltage will vary."

minbean

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #14 on: 18 Aug 2013, 02:45 pm »

another testimonial at http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21060
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Back in '06, there was a rather vigorous debate in this forum about the wisdom of modifying Bryston amps by Pure Sound in North Vancouver.
I have a 3B ST that has been owned for the past 14 years, and decided to give this upgrade a try. The cost was certainly reasonable ($200 plus tax), and the service was quite prompt as well.

Suffice to say, I'm very happy with the result. There's a lot more detail, while the musicality of this amp has been maintained. If you own a Bryston amp in the Lower Mainland, give this serious consideration! :mrgreen:"

James Tanner

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #15 on: 18 Aug 2013, 02:48 pm »
I think it would be interesting then to send it to us and let us measure it - if it measures better than the current circuits we would be the first to admit it and move in that direction.

james

minbean

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #16 on: 18 Aug 2013, 03:00 pm »
If Bryston promises not to copy "Pure Sound Modification" for their own production, I can supply the components and instruction for the mod to Bryston - $300 incl. shipping.   


 

Phil A

Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #17 on: 18 Aug 2013, 03:05 pm »
I have a 3BST I picked up used a few years back for a secondary system.  Right now I have it in the basement system (had it in the bedroom system for a bit before last month or so) with an Odyssey Candela preamp (I picked up at the recent Capital Audiofest) driving old B&W P6s and it sounds really good.  I have not even hooked it to a great source (I have a DAC on order) and just using an Oppo BDP-93 to play SACDs for FLAC (including some hi-rez) from a thumb drive.  Unless I really can A/B something (and if then with a short time lag it may not be all that accurate a test), I'd be really reluctant to make changes/void a warranty.  I'm in process of a move and unless I had something in a system for a long period of time with the same components and speakers (pretty hard for an audiophile :lol:), it is not something I'd think about.  I'd be curious as to the rest of the systems (not the amp) before and after the mod and how long they were together without changes.

James Tanner

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #18 on: 18 Aug 2013, 03:13 pm »
If Bryston promises not to copy "Pure Sound Modification" for their own production, I can supply the components and instruction for the mod to Bryston - $300 incl. shipping.

Hi,

I would prefer to measure and listen to a unit already modified by the people involved as it would be more representative of the end result of the modification.  We would not copy or steal anyones ideas or designs without compensating them with a royalty on every unit sold assuming that is acceptable to them.

james

minbean

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Re: Sercret Bryston Mod?
« Reply #19 on: 18 Aug 2013, 03:50 pm »
Hi,

I would prefer to measure and listen to a unit already modified by the people involved as it would be more representative of the end result of the modification.  We would not copy or steal anyones ideas or designs without compensating them with a royalty on every unit sold assuming that is acceptable to them.

james

My offer was to prevent excessive cost and troubles of shipping the whole amplifier that belongs to my customer. Mod with the supplied kit will ensure exactly same units as the modified ones. I believe in the integrity of the company of Bryston however I wanted to clarify what was involved - no disrespect.

Minsoo Kim