[pugs]

What are the main differences between the two?  Are Real Taps worth the huge difference in price?  What are Real Traps made of?  The higher the WAF, the better.

My room is 12' x 22' with the ceiling sloping from 8' in the front to 15' in the back.  First reflection points are glass and floor is tile.

[samplesj]

I'll take a pass at an answer.  Obviously the vendors may have more accurate information, but I expect they are staying away so as to not stir up trouble.  

Real Traps are rigid fiberglass but they are a membrane type trap.  They do measure better than just rigid fiberglass at an equivalent thickness.

GIK panels are plain rigid fiberglass.  They could be DIY'd for less than half, but that really isn't a bad markup for a finished product.

Bryan at Sensible Sound also builds plain rigid fiberglass traps.  His are more, but the GOM he uses generally runs $15/yard so its a much more expensive fabric.  GOM is fire resistant and acoustically transparent and you get to pick the specific color.


I used RealTraps in my HT system.  At the time there wasn't much in the way of commercial options.  However I'd still probably go that way for that room.  They can be thinner for the same absorption so I think it has a higher WAF.

For my 2 channel system I'm building the traps myself.  I wanted to save as much of my budget as possible for other types of treatment so I needed to DIY.  That is also my room so no WAF issues.  I don't have to worry about how big the traps are (how much they stick out).  The 6" bass traps have cost me ~$40 each and the 4" FRP panels were around ~$30 each.

[Glenn K]

>Obviously the vendors may have more accurate information, but I expect they are staying away so as to not stir up trouble. <

Ethan and I are freinds so no trouble here..

>GIK panels are plain rigid fiberglass. They could be DIY'd for less than half, but that really isn't a bad markup for a finished product. <

Sure you can build them (not sure if for half) but it is not just plain rigid fiberglass.. We have a membrane system to them and also use a different fabric for the back then the front.. Also we have a floating frame on the front to keep the edges very pro looking but not covering the sides.. Very important to keep the sides open for sound to come in..
What you are buying is a panel that looks great, lab tested and proven by hundreds of people..

This is in no way taking away from Real Traps.. There product rocks as well..

Glenn

[bpape]

Both products can do a good job in the right application.  The Real Traps area bit more targeted if you already have plenty of HF absorbtion in the room elsewhere and don't want/need more.  Conversely, the GIKs are more fully broadband if that's what the room needs.  They are just 2 different products for 2 different requirements.

And to clarify, the finished panels I sell are 1" and 2" only.  They are designed more for general decay time control and reflection point duty rather than bass control.  All of the products I have for bass control would be of the DIY variety.

[samplesj]

Sure you can build them (not sure if for half)

Well like I said for a finished product 2x is really quite low markup.  I wasn't trying to bash on pricing.  At the time I thought your panels were just rigid fiberglass/rock wool so I was comparing it to my $30 each 4" panels.  $30x2 = $60.  $60 is less than half of $140 (shipped cost of GIK panels).

but it is not just plain rigid fiberglass.. We have a membrane system to them and also use a different fabric for the back then the front.. Also we have a floating frame on the front to keep the edges very pro looking but not covering the sides.. Very important to keep the sides open for sound to come in.

Sorry about the mischaracterization if yours are now membrane based traps.  I was basing that on your site and an http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=682d83b4fde01c886e4265a3c29ba71d&threadid=9525&highlight=gik'>old (7/11/05) post of yours on a different forum  In that post you described it as a rockwool panel with a back frame.  Looking at your test numbers I do see that they are better than normal 703/705.  You have a similar falloff to the FRK faced stuff, but the numbers are better there too.

I am a little confused though.  I thought membrane based traps needed to be airtight?  How can your panels be open to the sides and still be membrane based?

[Glenn K]

that was before we got lab numbers back, so I felt as though I did not want to say to much...

I did not think you where bashing us at all..

[bpape]

Membranes can be of 2 types.

First is the type you're referring to that are air tight and the air inside is used as a spring.  The density of the face and the volume of air behind determines the frequency of tuning.  These are generally effective over about an octave or a little more.

The second type is more of a damped membrane.  It operates somewhat on the same principle in that the membrane has a tendancy to vibrate when struck by a wave but in this case it is damped by being in direct contact with the absorbant material.  These tend to be more broadband and more efficient per square foot than the first type.

Again, both have their place depending on what you need.  For instance, in a studio live room, you don't want a lot of damping - you want it more, well, live.  However, bass control is still important.  In that case, the sealed ones of mixed dimensions are very useful.  For a control room, HT, music room, etc., you want more broadband control and need some mid and high frequency absorbtion.

The difference in the 2 products AFAIK is how wide their response is.  They are both membranes but of different thicknesses, material, and density so they act differently on the spectrum accordingly.

[pugs]

Thanks for all of your replies, they are very helpful.  I'm leaning towards the GIK panels now, mainly because they seem to be effective and they are relatively inexpensive.  I'm not sure if I'm ready to spend a couple thousand on Real Traps.  If the price difference was justified, then maybe.

I will need a couple floorstanders for my first reflection points.  Does GIK sell those?

[ZooDog]

I've had 6 GIK panels (4 244's, 2 247's) in my room for almost two weeks now and they have made a significant improvement not only in the bass, but in the rest of the spectrum as well.  I would recommend them wholeheartedly at even twice the price (don't get any ideas, Glenn) based on the sonic improvement they provide.

I'd expect that with their metal frames, Ethan's panels are sturdier than the GIK's.  I think that sometime soon Glenn will be offering multiple colors for his panels which will help with WAF.  As far as effectiveness goes, I think we need to see both products tested together to get the real scoop.

[PhilNYC]

As far as effectiveness goes, I think we need to see both products tested together to get the real scoop.

One thought about this...is it really possible to do this "test"?  Different rooms have different issues, so isn't it really about finding a product that fits a particular need?  For instance...in a particular room, a test might find Realtraps to absorb more...but in a particular situation, it might be absorbing too much.

[ZooDog]

As far as effectiveness goes, I think we need to see both products tested together to get the real scoop.

One thought about this...is it really possible to do this "test"?  Different rooms have different issues, so isn't it really about finding a product that fits a particular need?  For instance...in a particular room, a test might find Realtraps to absorb more...but in a particular situation, it might be absorbing too much.

I see your point Phil, I was just thinking in terms of raw numbers.

[Glenn K]

I would recommend them wholeheartedly at even twice the price (don't get any ideas, Glenn)

  I have been eyeing this new BMW!!!  

[quigley]

Well I just finished putting up 21 of ther GIF panels. I have a 20 x 30 x10 room. I used 4 7 inch panels in the corners, 8 4 inch ones on the sides up front and 9 2 inch ones on the back sides. I do not have any fancy graphs, the only sweep of a room I know how to do is with a broom. All I can say is they made a very big improvement. I can now hear dialog easily. No more closed captioning.The price of the panel is not bad, it's the shipping. Adds a good deal to the price. Really no choice the boxes are big. Also the price differene between the 2 and 4 inch panel is not that much. If I were redoing it I would get all 4 in place of the the 2. Very easy to hang. Glenn does recommend placing something behind the panel to keep it off the wall. I found an easy trick. Go to Lowe's or HD and get the four inch PVC connectors. They are in the plumbing section. They are 4 inches high and 5 inches in diameter. They fit perfectly behind the panel and hold if off the wall about 2 to 3 inches. Perhaps Glenn can explain why this works.

[gary]

Shipping on 21 panels? If I was as close to Georgia as you, I'd've driven to pick them up . Anyway, I have three of Glenn's 2" panels, and they have made a significant improvement in my system. They should have too, my room is only 12'x10' and the first reflections are brutal.

Gary

[quigley]

put some catty corner across the front corners. amazing the difference.

[richlo]

Well I just finished putting up 21 of ther GIF panels.  ...

21????!!!
HOLY MARACAS!!!

Ive got GIK's also - 2 of the 247 and 2 of the 244..the  monsters are upfront in the corners the other two are in the rear corners...This was the single best purchase Ive ever made - it made a difference that I didnt expect and wow me immediately...now how can I fit another 17 in my room to catch up to Quigley

[Glenn K]

Well I just finished putting up 21 of ther GIF panels.  ...

21????!!!
HOLY MARACAS!!!

Ive got GIK's also - 2 of the 247 and 2 of the 244..the  monsters are upfront in the corners the other two are in the rear corners...This was the single best purchase Ive ever made - it made a difference that I didnt expect and wow me immediately...now how can I fit another 17 in my room to catch up to Quigley

Let me show you the way!!!


Really guys I feel like the ugly girl at prom that everyone now wants to dance with..   But man does it feel good...
I am going to have all my over worked employees read this thread.. God knows I don't pay them enough..  Can anyone translate this threat to spanish for me??? ha ha ha... Just kidding...  

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Phil,

> in a particular room, a test might find Realtraps to absorb more...but in a particular situation, it might be absorbing too much. <

I've never seen that happen. Our traps have an intentional curve of absorption versus frequency that is ideal for pretty much any room. Even when there's already a bunch of foam or other absorption in the room, I've never had anyone tell me that adding our traps then made the room too dead. I think the problem of making any small room "too dead" is overstated. Sure, you don't want an anechoic chamber, but even with 38 traps in my fairly large living room, the RT60 is very uniform across the entire range. It's the uniformity that matters the most.

--Ethan

[PhilNYC]

Ethan,

Very interesting...although my comment was more just to illustrate a point rather than to be a specific comment about your product....

[richlo]

Phil,

> in a particular room, a test might find Realtraps to absorb more...but in a particular situation, it might be absorbing too much. <

, I've never had anyone tell me that adding our traps then made the room too dead. ...

I agree - I think because they dont hear the BOOMINESS associated with LF, then they can naturally assume TOO DEAD...where did the BOOMBASTIC go??