[bprice2]

I'm hoping some of ya'll might be able to help me get some things straight regarding the SB mods available.  

First, let me give you a little background.  This past Christmas I purchased an NAD T753 A/V receiver, PSB T55 speakers and a Martin Logan Dynamo subwoofer.  Eventually, I will expand the speaker setup for 5.1 listening, but first I want to upgrade my cd player...at least I did before I discovered the Squeeze Box.

My SB3 arrived last week.  I love it.  It does everything I had imagined, and does it well.  However, in regards to sound quality, I feel like I made a horizontal move or worse.  My old circa 1990 Sony 5 disk changer still sounds a little better and I'm already obsessing on tweaking the SB3.

After spending all the past weekend reading the information in this circle, I am feeling excited about what my SB3 could be and also a little confused.  

Here's what I think I need:  Upgraded power supply and an external DAC.  And, maybe a digital out upgrade on the SB3.  

I know my sound system is limited compared to what many of you are listening to and I would like to hear from ya'll what you think are the benefits for me and my sound system in making an SB3 mod.  Also, do I have it right?  Do I really need to purchase and external DAC?  Also, whats the difference in outputting analog vs. digital?  And for that matter, what's the difference between coax and optical?

I have a lot to learn.

BTW:  Here's my contribution to the group.  Pick up the Gourds new one - "Heavy Ornamentals"...good stuff!

[Loftprojection]

Which output are you currently using on your SB when you compare it to your old CDP?  If you are using the digital out (one cable only, either RCA plug or the little square which is the optical) then you are using your NAD receiver to convert the sound in analog.  If you are using the analog out (2 cables Left and Right) then you are using the SB internal DAC to convert to analog then in your NAD to amplify the sound.  This can be a major difference depending on the quality of the DAC in your NAD receiver versus the SB internal DAC.  Test it out using both output mode and see which you prefer.

I don't have a SB but I'm looking at it so I'm very interested in your feedback.  There is so many people raving at this I'm also a bit surprised that even stock it doesn't beat your old Sony CD changer.   When you do your tests, are you sure you are using a lossless version of the same song you play in your CD player?  If you use a compressed version in the SB versus the original CD in your player then for sure the SB is penalized...

[Charles Calkins]

bprice2:
 Getting the SB3 modded is a step in the right direction. I know that if you get it done you will enjoy it more than you do now. However if and when you do that you are stuck with what you have. I have an SB3 and love it. However I'm not getting mine modded. I'm going the outboard DAC route. I've got a DAC-60 with mods on order from GR Research. If I don't like it I can always try something else. If I get my SB3 modded then I have no way of trying out different setups. This is just my own opinion. I know that Boulder and RWA do outstanding mods to the SB3. If you go that way you will be very satisfied.

                      Cheers
                      Charlie

[bprice2]

Lopro, after making the statement regarding my cdp I had to go back and do some comparing.  After clicking back and forth on my remote between the cdp and the sb3 playing the same album (Buena Vista Social Club...so sweet) I believe I need to amend my previous statement.

I haven't listened to my cdp since I got the sb3.  Perhaps the sb3 has broken in some, but it definitely has a better quality sound than the old Sony.  There are a few things that I notice the sb3 does better.  The first is bass.  The second is mid.  They both hold together better.  

The sb3 has a quality to it that I don't quite know how to describe.  I think it’s what others have referred to as veiling.  It sounds like it’s a little muffled, but that’s not quite right.  

I'm hooked up by way of two RCA cables (analog).  Don't have a digital cable.  I think I'll get one and check it out.  It could be interesting.

So far, I am in no way dissatisfied with this product.  It does exactly what I thought it would do out of the box.  I knew before ordering that there were mods for it, but had not done any research.  But now that I have it and have done the research I'm pretty geeked on the possibility that I may not have to pimp my wife to get a good sounding cdp.  It really all comes back to how do I spend less money and what do I really need to buy to appreciate some of the good things I've been reading about.

[zybar]

bprice2:
 Getting the SB3 modded is a step in the right direction. I know that if you get it done you will enjoy it more than you do now. However if and when you do that you are stuck with what you have. I have an SB3 and love it. However I'm not getting mine modded. I'm going the outboard DAC route. I've got a DAC-60 with mods on order from GR Research. If I don't like it I can always try something else. If I get my SB3 modded then I have no way of trying out different setups. This is just my own opinion. ...

Charles,

There are mods for just digital out that improve the SB2/3.  Don't overlook this fact and just assume that an outboard dac is all you need to do.

George

[JoshK]

George,

Given the context of his system and how much improvements mods makes, can you weigh in with your experience in what efforts are most beneficial?

[bprice2]

Charles,
How much does an external DAC cost?  I've seen a couple reviewed well for $200-300, and I've seen others priced for more than my entire system.  I'm attempting to balance my personal obsessions and my check book at the same time.

Brett Price

[Charles Calkins]

bprice2:

  $785.00

[Charles Calkins]

zybar:
 As usual you are probably right. For now I chose to go with the external DAC. Probably down the road a bit I'll get my SB3 modded. But I'm thinking for now I'll wait a year or so before I have it done. By that time I'm sure a lot and I mean a lot of smart moddedrs will get involved and who knows what the results will be. Computer audio is kind of something new there are a lot of people who when I say "squeeze box" they say "huh". Me too that's why I'm called Dumdum!!!

                           Cheers
                        Charlie

[Carlman]

Based on your system, I too would second using an external DAC.  There are a slew of good ones out there, I'd recommend buying used, a Bel Canto DAC2 would be my first recommendation.  It's very neutral and doesn't color the sound in any way.  If you like a little more warmth, a tubed DAC might be better, like a Scott Nixon.

I had pretty good luck using some basic $200-$300 dac's out there.. but I don't know if I'd recommend them anymore... it's been too long.  The best DAC I've had was a Meitner or a/d/s.. I had it modified and my total investment was around 1,k.  It could easily hang with anything near or above its price range.  

Anyway, just get a DAC, use the digital out on that SB3 and be happy.  If you can, try to get an upgraded PS for the SB3.  I've found it does make a little improvement when used directly connected to an amp.

[gitarretyp]

If i were in the market for a dac, i'd seriously consider a DAC-60

[Loftprojection]

For now I chose to go with the external DAC. Probably down the road a bit I'll get my SB3 modded. But I'm thinking for now I'll wait a year or so before I have it done. By that time I'm sure a lot and I mean a lot of smart moddedrs will get involved and who knows what the results will be.

I think that is a smart move and exactly what I was thinking to do.  Get a SB3, a good but cheap power supply and feed an external DAC via a good digital cable.

[chadh]

Consider two possible courses of action:

1) Spend something less than $20 on a linear power supply and spend $265 on the Bolder analog only mods (just as an example) and have a digital audio system to be proud of.  At a later date I can spend another $250 (or more) to upgrade power supplies.  Or, if I don't like the sound, I can sell the modified unit and then start back at the beginning with a new stock SB3 for $300; or

2) Spend $460 on a Lite DAC 60 (again, just an example of a DAC, but a popular one), plus some cash on a digital cable and less than $20 on a linear power supply to have, by all reports, a very nice sounding digital system.  I can get upgrades to the DAC 60 for around $230.  And I can get Bolder digital mods to the SB3 for a little more than $200.  And I can get an upgraded power supply for around $250 (or more).  Or, if I don't like the sound, I can sell the Lite DAC 60 and start again with my unmodified SB3.

The sense in which option (2) gives you more options is that it provides a greater number of places you could choose to spend your dollars upgrading the sound.  It's not clear whether this is very valuable, compared to option (1) where the upgrade path is well defined and is very, very short.   It's cheaper to begin with option (1) (by almost $200, without considering the digital cable).  And even if we compare the worst case scenarios to each other (where you return to the SB3 in stock form and make a new decision), option (1) is cheaper if the resale price for the modded SB3 is at least $100 more than for the DAC 60 (which seems amazingly likely).

What's more, option (2) requires purchase of a digital cable, introduces a whole extra component and pair of connections into the signal path and requires the PCM signal to be converted into SPDIF.

With the power supply upgrade, option (1) is supposedly world class.  With all of the hype about the DAC 60, I'm sure option (2) could be world class too.  But that might actually involve not only a power supply upgrade for the SB3, but also digital output mods for the SB3 and modifications to the DAC 60.  Again, option (1) sounds like the cheaper path.

Of course, any individual may find one or the other option superior - without auditioning both you'd never know which alternative you prefer.  But without audition, I would have to hear a bunch of arguments that using the DAC 60 out of a stock SB3 gave superior sonic performance to the analog mods to the SB3 before I would use that alternative.  Infact, I'm planning to sell my DAC and my dejittering machine and my digital cables in favor of the analog mods to the SB3 explicitly because it is so much cheaper and casual reviews of the alternatives don't suggest that I'd be losing anything.
(Besides, I want to buy a new pre-amp).

Chad

[woodsyi]

Bolder modified analog out is getting better and better.  It will take a good DAC to better the sound.  It is an option to go analog mod and not look back.....

On the digital side, I am not sold on the S/PDIF interface on the SBs.  I will do a comparison when I2S Off Ramp gets here..............

[mcgsxr]

I have chosen the Bolder FULL SB3 mods, and upgraded Bolder power supply - I will report on my findings, as it burns in, when it arrives!

[DSK]

Of course, any individual may find one or the other option superior - without auditioning both you'd never know which alternative you prefer. But without audition, I would have to hear a bunch of arguments that using the DAC 60 out of a stock SB3 gave superior sonic performance to the analog mods to the SB3 before I would use that alternative. Infact, I'm planning to sell my DAC and my dejittering machine and my digital cables in favor of the analog mods to the SB3 explicitly because it is so much cheaper and casual reviews of the alternatives don't suggest that I'd be losing anything.
(Besides, I want to buy a new pre-amp).
 ...

Don't forget that (for those of us with only one source) the Bolder modded SB2/3 and Deluxe PS allow you to eliminate the pre-amp and associated interconnects from the signal path. This is what I have done, removing a Sony SCD-XA777ES and excellent modded tube hybrid pre-amp, and I'm getting the best sound I've ever had.... not missing SACD at all (or my former PT P1A/modded P3A/P3 combo).  

[bprice2]

Thanks Guys,

Great input.  I did a little experiment today and purchased Monster Cable's digital coax for $25.  It is an improvement.  Apparently the NAD T753 has a better DAC than the SB3 (this is it, if you care to take a look http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4392_PP3.pdf.)  The basses were lower, the highs were higher, and the muffled sound I had described was replaced by more depth.  It was a pretty cool experience...I'd made something better.

Still, I expect that with the power upgrade and a mod or two on the unit, sound quality will improve dramatically.  I think there's enough testimonial to believe that's the case.

My inclination is to contact the guys at Bolder Cable.  I've been told that they will work with me and my concerns.  But also, I've had a thought I want to run by you all.  

Its my understanding that Bolder does not yet have a good analog mod for the SB3 and I see on their webpage that they are only offering mods on the digital outs for about $120.  Also, based on my observations, it appears that the NAD T753 internal DAC is higher quaility than the SB3's (if somebody could check that out for me, it would be lovely ).  If all the things mentioned are correct, does it make any sense to:

     A) do the digital mod from Bolder for $120
     B)  order a basic power supply from Bolder for $230, &
     C) seek out an upgrade mod on the internal DAC in my receiver?

Does this even make any sense?

Thanks.

[chadh]

A couple of things spring to mind:

1.  The Bolder analog mods are, by all reports, excellent!

2.  Your current preference for feeding the SB digital output into your NAD doesn't necessarily indicate the superiority of the NAD DAC.  If you look at the modifications that Red Wine or Bolder perform on the SB, the first thing they do is to bypass the amplification stage after the DAC chip, so that DAC ouput heads straight to the analog outs.  I think this generates significant sonic improvements.  So, what you may well be hearing is the detrimental effect of the SB opamps that lie in the signal path after the DAC (for example).

3.  Analog mods to the SB by Red Wine and Bolder both include an upgrade to the DAC chip.

4.  Regardless, if you own a DAC with which you're happy, then the Bolder digital mods on the SB3 are really affordable and are likely to provide significant improvement.

4.  One thing that Vinnie at Red Wine and Wayne at Bolder insisted was that the single simplest thing to do to improve the sound of the SB is to replace the power supply.  This doesn't mean you would have to go with something relatively expensive like the PS offered by Bolder, or the battery supply offered by Red Wine.  There are much cheaper linear regulated supplies available off-the-shelf.  A little searching on the forums should reveal threads in which some of these options are discussed.

Chad

[bubba966]

If all the things mentioned are correct, does it make any sense to:

A) do the digital mod from Bolder for $120
B) order a basic power supply from Bolder for $230, &
C) seek out an upgrade mod on the internal DAC in my receiver?

As far as A) goes, by all means do this. As far as B) goes if you don't have a problem with the cost, then again go for it. As far as C) goes, I wouldn't bother with trying to mod the internal DAC in your NAD.

Rather than mod the NAD, I'd probably go for a better digital cable from Bolder (I do have the Monster digital here just like what you bought and it gets blown away by any of the digitals that you can get from Bolder. I know that because I have had pretty much every single digital cable offered by Bolder at one time or another). Preferrably one with WBT NextGen connectors on it. The Bolder digital cable w/copper WBT NextGen's is $135. Better yet would be the Bolder ICE digital. And if you wanted an even nicer digital there's always the Ultra "Bubba" ICE digital. Though most people find that one to be insane overkill...

Best bet would be to call Bolder up and talk over your options/budget/needs/etc. with Wayne. He'll tell you where your $ is best spent, even if it's not spent with him. And that's one of the things I really like about dealing with Wayne. He's not selling you stuff just to sell you stuff.

[dave_c]

sounds like an all too familiar story. . .buy a new component, want to improve sound, ask for help on forum, go into massive debt looking for that elusive sound. . .

Here's what I would do:

1.  Get an inexpensive linear power supply for the SB3
2.  Get Bolder Digital Mods for SB3 and ask for BNC Connectors instead of WBT NextGen.
3.  Install BNC Connector for one of the RCA connectors on the NAD T753
4.  Get 1.5m Stereovox HDXV Digital Cable
5.  If there's some cash leftover, get a quality A/C conditioner

I think that the DAC in the T753 is already pretty good and you should try to optimize the digital signal coming in.  BNC connections reduce jitter by having a true 75ohm impedance.  The HDXV cable also maintains a 75ohm impedance and is BNC terminated and has BNC to RCA adapters.  It sounds excellent and is relatively inexpensive new and pretty cheap used.    If you get an external DAC you'll have to get a good digital cable anyway and most likely some nice interconnects and a power cable too which will just add to the cost.  
Another way to get better sound is mind how you're encoding your music.  Are you playing mp3's, FLAC's OGG's?  If you can try to re-encode everything into a lossless format (I like FLAC) which will improve your sound tremendously.  It's a lot of work, but if you get used to using tools like EAC, FLAC and LAME you can get excellent quality music files.