Anyone Own Acoustic Zen Adagio/Red Dragon Leviathan?

audiophile39 · « **on:** 18 Feb 2006, 04:21 pm »

This combination has been brought to my attention by someone whose opinion I respect, who heard them at a recent show, and I'd be interested in learning more from others. Thanks

PhilNYC · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Feb 2006, 05:33 pm »

Disclaimer first that I'm an AZ dealer. But I've got a pair of the Adagios (am listening to them right now with a Bel Canto S300 ICEPower amp) and enjoy them very much. Was not planning to get a pair at all when AZ first told me they were getting into speakers, but hearing them at CES paired with the Red Dragon stuff convinced me otherwise.

Here's a thread that describes better what they were showing at CES:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24700

Stereotimes.com liked them at the show very much, too!

http://www.stereotimes.com/CES2006DaveThomas.shtm

audiophile39 · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Feb 2006, 08:12 pm »

Thanks for the links. I spoke with Robert at AZ and he, himself, is a little breathtaken by having received around 150 orders for the Adagio at a recent show (CES?). He likes the Red Dragon monoblocs however they do seem pricey at over $5,000. I thought ICE technology is supposed to bring the cost of amps down.

Parnelli777 · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 02:51 am »

Didn't that Red Dragon company offer an amp just a few months ago, well under $2000? I'm sure I saw it on Audiogon. Sort of a simple, nice looking enclosure, 200 watts or some such.

What happened? New design for the chassis, but same circuit, for $3000+ increase in less than 6 months?

Maybe he thought no one was paying much attention anyhow, so why not jack the price to the moon and see if anyone bites.

audiophile39 · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 04:23 am »

Quote

Didn't that Red Dragon company offer an amp just a few months ago, well under $2000?

Back in June/05, RD offered an introductory price of $1,650, although I don't know if it was their Leviathan monoblocs that are now selling for over $5,000. That would be a big increase if it were the case.

audiophile39 · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 07:20 am »

The man behind RD says one of the reasons behind the nearly $6,000 pricetag of the Leviathan amp is high quality parts. For example, he said he uses a stainless steel chassis that is multiple times more expensive than aluminum. Is this credible?

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 11:25 am »

Heavystarch used to be a regular around here. He was always a stand-up guy. I'm a little puzzled by the mega-price increase, but hopefully Ryan will step up and give us the "411".

PhilNYC · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 12:42 pm »

Quote

He likes the Red Dragon monoblocs however they do seem pricey at over $5,000.

They are a little on the expensive side, but they are within range of their competition using the comparable ICEPower unit (they are less expensive than the Rowland 501, more expensive than the Bel Canto Ref1000). Given the incredibly beautiful chassis work on the Red Dragon, it seems reasonably priced.

Quote

I thought ICE technology is supposed to bring the cost of amps down.

FWIW, Bel Canto just lowered their prices...$995 each for the M300 monoblocks (dropped from $1200), S300 is now $1395 (dropped from $1600), and ref1000 is now $1995 (dropped from $2200). So yes, it does appear that there is some price competition driving down the prices of ICEPower amps....

audiophile39 · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 01:43 pm »

Quote

Given the incredibly beautiful chassis work on the Red Dragon, it seems reasonably priced.

Unless exotic and expensively finished wood on an amp's chassis has a significant enhancing effect on sonic qualities, then, for me at least, it's a waste, though, admittedly esthetically pleasing. I tend to hide my components on a rack anyway, so while I appreciate the workmanship, I'd rather the chassis be more utlitarian, like the NuForce or Channel Island amps, and have more accessible prices.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 01:52 pm »

Quote from: audiophile39

Unless exotic and expensively finished wood on an amp's chassis has a significant enhancing effect on sonic qualities, then, for me at least, it's a waste, though, admittedly esthetically pleasing. .

Yep, everyone has their own preferences and priorities.

FWIW, from the Red Dragon website:

"The solid hardwood case is offered in four stunning exotic woods: zebrawood, cocobolo, east Indian rosewood and macassar ebony. Other finishes available by request. Cabinet construction starts with hand selecting each piece of hardwood for its beauty, uniformity and integrity. Top and bottom plates are laser cut from twelve gauge brushed stainless steel which provides an extremely rigid framework for the hardwood exterior. "

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Feb 2006, 06:18 pm »

Yeah, I blanched when I first read about the Red Dragon's price. I think it has tyo do with several factors...all related to a new business venture.

He (Ryan/HeavyStarch) is trying to gain a dealer base...and as a first timer to it all, doesn't quite know to allow for 33 - 50% for a markup for them.

He's also dealing with high costs of buying the IcePower modules in small batches...encountering higher costs for 'first column' (small volume) purchasing and higher freight costs for them (assuming they are shipped in from Denmark)

He also doesn't know the cost of doing business yet...and trying to cover all of these obstacles is daunting in the beginning. No doubt, the wood is fairly costly and adding to the high prices.

I know, I know, I'm probably assuming a bunch...but many of these issues I faced years ago in starting a business. It's better to price it high then too low in the beginning....it's harder to raise prices than it is to lower them in business

Anyhow, Ryan seems to be a bright, energetic guy and the reviews have been quite positive for his initial product....I'd think there is more good things to come from him in the future. For me (and others), we hope it is at less dear pricing.

When you look at what Odyssey and Audio by van Alstine offer in product at under $2000.00, and listen to their wares, it's difficult to look seriously at the high cost digital amp crowd right now. That is, of course, my humble opinion of things as they currently are

CornellAlum · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 02:24 pm »

The discounts for volume on icepower modules aren't close to what I expected when I read the dealer price sheet, so that theory goes down the drain I would think. I am not sure how in the world the icepower amps could possibly sell for that much money considering the cost of the modules to the dealer. 500 bucks in parts plus a chassis couldn't possibly equal 6 grand, unless my college math is failing me.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 03:46 pm »

Quote from: CornellAlum

500 bucks in parts plus a chassis couldn't possibly equal 6 grand, unless my college math is failing me.

The general guideline in pricing consumer electronics is that the MSRP is approximately 4x-5x the cost of materials, or around 3x total cost of goods (including labor, etc). So $500 in parts plus a chassis would normally be priced around $2500...and a pair of monoblocks gets you to $5000 (right at Red Dragon's price point). So IMHO it doesn't look all that far out of wack...

woodsyi · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 04:01 pm »

The vast differences in the retail price of ICE power amps befuddles me. From Jeff Rowland, Red Dragon, Analog Research, Bel Canto to Acoustic Reality, you have a big swing. I know Pat from Analog Research stated that he does something with his input and it's not just the ICE module packaged. I assume JR and BC also does something like that. Red Dragon may be doing that too inside the fancy chasis. At one point Wayne at Bolder carried ice amps as well for moderately high price as well. I went for the utilitarian eAR1001s since I was only looking to drive woofers and I am too cheap to pay for the looks.

Having said that, Ryan has always been upfront and considerate in dealing with me and my questions. If JR can do it, why not RD! Best of luck, Ryan.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 06:34 pm »

Well I better chime in here.

When I first started RDA I had intended to do Consumer Direct (bypassing retail store fronts) but I found that a dealer support network was invaluable to my customers and myself for a variety of reasons.

So I went back to the drawing board on RDA.

What you see today is that evolution of Red Dragon Audio which happened middle of last year. Prices reflect the dealer network involvment, much higher quality parts content, chassis design and an aim at the higher end.

Please note that I am still working to bring forth the 250watt ICEcube monoblocks priced at $999each. These will be sold at retailers and direct to consumer as well. The design is finished and prototypes long tested. I'm just working on nailing down a chassis manufacturer for the final production run.

I had hoped to debut the ICEcubes at Danny Richie's event in Texas but I won't be able to submit them in time. When they are ready I would certainly send them to Danny's for another event as well as to the other audiophile clubs found here on AC.

I very much enjoy the comments, insight and experience users share with one another here on AC. Is it time to form a Red Dragon Audio circle just yet?

CornellAlum · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 06:36 pm »

Sure, why the heck not. I will participate. I like the 999 idea, keep the information coming.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 07:36 pm »

Ryan,

Thanks for chiming in.

I neither know how organized you are, or patience level with consumers, but going thru retailer network is generally not a good direction to go.

Higher prices do not make for a successful product...the lessons of Sam Walton are clearly etched in my brain. The internet has democratized and made more efficient the marketing process forever.

I don't mean to offend 'PhilNYC' and other great servicing dealers (really, I don't, and I appreciate your great efforts), but adding costs to the chain is generally the wrong direction. I can't sell consumer direct in my business - you need huge volumes to harness the right costs from our China factories - but, even so, we are zealous in keeping overheads low and markups tame.

Anyhow, that's my opinion - one in which I also shared with the great Kevin Haskins of DIYCable, and he told me he disagrees:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24675&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

A VW Polo TDI sign-off...and you live in Provo, UT. You're proving to be an interesting fella, Ryan

PhilNYC · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 07:54 pm »

Chairguy,

I'm not offended by your opinion, but I do think its dangerous to make broad generalizations like you are making. Yes, a business needs to make sure it is not adding unnecessary costs and markups need to be rational. But citing Sam Walton's success of driving prices down on commodity products is not quite so applicable to the highly-specialized high end audio market.

The important thing is to apply investments and incur middleman costs that bring higher value. Look at Apple Computer...they realized that of of the only way they were going to be able to compete with Windows-based computers was to get their costs down. However, through deep market research, they also saw that retailers like Best Buy and CompUSA were providing horrible sales and customer services to potential customers. This led to Apple opening their own stores in order to have properly trained salespeople and technical support delivering the proper services to potential and existing customers. Did it raise their costs? Absolutely. Did it improve their sales and ultimately help their business. Also absolutely.

Cambridge Soundworks is an example of a company that found value in opening retail outlets because their 30-day in-home trial business became too expensive to maintain...too many units came back from these trials, and the research showed that had the potential customer had an opportunity to try out the product before ordering it, they probably wouldn't have placed the order. So opening stores was a less expensive way for them to provide that service.

I'm not about to say that all high end audio dealers add the correct value; one of the reasons I became a dealer was because I saw a shinking set of audio retailers who were truly knowledgeable about the products they sold and/or were genuinely helpful to their customers. But finding the right dealers and providing products with competitive (not necessarily the lowest) pricing is not IMHO something that can be legitimately brushed as "the wrong direction".

Just my (obviously biased) opinion...

LordCloud · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 08:01 pm »

I would like to chime in as well. I know Ryan personally, and have come to know him over the past few years well enough to offer commentary on his character. He is one of the most honest people you will ever encounter, both in his personal and business endeavors. I have read over these posts and have almost taken offense to what I have seen. Here we have a guy with numerous posts, MOST HELPING PEOPLE, and all you all look to do is cut him down and harm his business by making claims that have neither base nor sense. The increase in price on his amps to the best of my knowledge are because of his switch from direct sales to a dealer base, better componetry, better chassis, time spent on the amps, and throw in a little bit of mortgage, wife, and child expenses. Not to mention he spends time tweaking these amps beyond the performance of your typical Icepower amp. Red Dragon Audio is a one man operation, a one man full time operation, this is his job. It would be very nice if the next guesses that were offered here were of the educated kind.

CornellAlum · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Feb 2006, 08:46 pm »

Well, Ryan fuly admitted that he increased his prices to "aim at the high end." I am not sure what you are objecting to here. It's his business and likewise, any other manufacturer's business, and thus are free to charge as much or as little as they want. Chairguy is simply stating that in his opinion, higher prices do not equal business success. If you are to take real world examples, take a look at what walmart has done to so called higher priced stores. The proof is in the pudding. Would Ryan sell more amps at 4 grand instead of 6 while keeping the price the same, thus offsetting the number of units it would take to reach the desired level of profit...only an actuary or statistician can tel you that. However, basic ecomic principle says that an increase in price yields a decrease in demand.

You took this personally because you are a friend of his. If you were not, would yopu have the same reactions to this thread...I doubt it but maybe.

I have no interest either way. I am just simply astounded at the markup on icepower or class d amps in general when I know what the modules cost. Hence my participation in the thread.

If you don't like my opinions, remeber, they are just that, my opinions and they should have no bearing on anyone's business whatsoever. I wish I could afford one of Ryan's amps for that matter, as they are stunningly gourgeous.