[DeadFish]

Well, whilst I'm in the uncommon mood to post, I thought I'd follow my thoughts and ask anyone's opinion on HDCD.   I could have posted this in a more general forum, but my thought is to 'suck up' to one of you for a listen, if possible.
My reasoning is of curiosity to resolution beyond what I am used to.  
HDCD predates DVD-A and SACD, doesn't it?  And it is still around while the other two formats are in their death-throes...
Joni Mitchell's catalogue got me wondering, and now all the re-releases of The Dead are also on HDCD, and want to know what I am missing.
(Heck, my first DVD player was bought JUST to hear the DVD-A remix of American Beauty)
Anyone made a conscious listen to decide if the investment is worthwhile?
Anyone know if HDCD is decoded thru the ripping and playback thru a SB?
Does anyone care?

Well, I do, and although I 'search'ed  and found a lot of referencing, I didn't find anything specific to how much HDCD brings to the party.
Enquiring minds wanna know!
 
Thanks for listening...

Regards,
DeadFish

[mark@marktwain]

Hey Deadfish,

I have a Toshiba DVD player that has a HDCD decoder in it. I think I have one CD out of 800 which is HDCD can't remember what it is at the moment.   I have never done any critical listening with HDCD though. The Toshiba was my first DVD player and has been replaced by a Yamaha DVD-S2300 universal player. I moved the Toshiba to bedroom duty.

Mark

[boead]

Hey Deadfish,

I have a Toshiba DVD player that has a HDCD decoder in it. I think I have one CD out of 800 which is HDCD can't remember what it is at the moment.   I have never done any critical listening with HDCD though. The Toshiba was my first DVD player and has been replaced by a Yamaha DVD-S2300 universal player. I moved the Toshiba to bedroom duty.

Mark

? HDCD is way more common then that. Most of the time it’s not highly marketed and most players just simply decode the extra few bits if its available without the option of not playing it. To learn more about it, go to Microsoft.com, they own it.
I’m not sure how I would be able to know either way since I have no control over it, my Arcam FMJ supports HDCD and like I said if it’s available, it’ll play it. I believe its fairly cheap to encode for it and used as a ‘value added’ feature.

[jcrane]

BILL
IF you want you can borrow my Onix cd88 it is a Music Hall clone and has HDCD. It is stock and I haven't been using it much as my SB3 gets most (all)  the attention now.
Plus I need to get buy and finish that transaction for the foreplay if you are still interested in selling.
Things here have been crazy, not much time for fun.

Jamie

[DeadFish]

Hey Now!

Thanks for the posts, folks!

Jamie, kind offer, I don't need to live with it, but a hearty afternoon or evening of listening to your unit a/b'ed in my system would delight me.
(Yes, the Foreplay still has your name on it, if you still want it!  I've had a lot on my plate and mind as well, so nbd.)

One might be surprised at how many titles out there DO have HDCD that no one notices.  I have quite a few besides The Dead, Joni Mitchell and even my beloved 'Heritage' by Darol Anger.
I've been all around the 'Net the last few days and have nothing conclusive, but will repeat for anyone dong a search and finding this a few things:

SOME people actually don't like the HDCD sound, finding it contrived or artifacted.  Many do.
Microsoft now owns the rights to it.  If I got things straight, I think MediaPlayer 9 and 10 can interpret it, but I never got full-on confirmation from Microsoft on that.
The decoding is definitely done in the DAC part of the circuit.  If one has a HDCD player and you do a digital out to a non-HDCD DAC, it is not taken advantage of.  This being said, it seems many folks using a good DAC get better sound without the HDCD, than to hear the HDCD thru the analogue section of a CD player.  I guess that the only way it would come thru with a SqueezeBox would be thru digital out to a HDCD equipped DAC.  
I have been told in the past that my Theta unit brings more to the party than HDCD alone might bring, and the addition of HDCD capabilities to the Theta DAC would cost me $400 plus shipping, so I don't think I want to toss my money in that direction.

I've just been mostly curious about all this as some of my 'favoritest' cd's    
have this.  I recently replaced my first 'Live Dead' cd and noticed that it had it as well.  It was also remixed, so it *is* different from my previous cd and perhaps vinyl as well.  Would just like to know with the HDCD how far this went.

Y'all know the trail of chasing 'just how good can it get?!'.

Well, that's about what I drummed up for posterity...
Jamie, lets plan a listen sometimes.

Thanks again everyone!

Best Regards,
DeadFish

[FRANKe]

Good thread! - This is also of interest to me. Some CDs aren't even labeled as such, but yet are indeed HDCD. I discovered that I have more than a couple HDCDs in my collection. I currently do not have an HDCD player nor HDCD capable DAC, but I discovered by playing them on my PC. Windows Media Player does indeed display an HDCD icon when playing such CDs, but as far as I know, it only works with the actual CD (not a WAV file).

For what it's worth, there is a website that is trying to put together the definitive catalog of HDCDs. Check it out here:
http://www.hitbutiken.com/hdcd/index.php?p=home&lang=en

Enjoy,
-FRANKe

[alotaklipsch]

I have all the DEAD HDCD's and yes, HDCD is a BIG improvement.  My 3910 decodes it, but the best reasonable priced player that sounds amazing IMHO is the EE Minimax on HDCD  

[gprro]

Strange trip indeed, today I decided to not do anything and regroup a little.
Started reading the new Stereophile article about the Dead, and decided to pop in Dicks Picks 18. Played it in the player I usually use for cd which is a Samsung 841 digitaly into a Marantz 8400 receiver. Notice that the volume is way lower than expected, sounds good though. I then remember that for some reason the 841 doesn't pass HDCD to the marantz, switch to the Toshiba I use for DVDs that does pass HDCD, and everything is diffent. Lower the volume by at least 8-10 dbs, everything is fuller and heavier sounding. Both these players sound pretty close as transports with regular cds so the HDCD is doing something.

I'm not sure which I prefer though as the HDCD is almost too thick sounding?

I'm interested in your take too when you get a listen.

[Mike D]

Bill

Several months back, Scott reported that he found a killer DVD/CD/HDCD/DVD-A/SACD super-value cd player at Best Buy for around $150.  It could easily be modified with black gate output capacitors and maybe even a tube output stage... if you can find someone who knows how.     If you like Jamey's HDCD player, you could invest in the Best Buy unit.  When you get the itch again, I could slap some black gates in it for you.  When you get the itch after that, you could sweet talk a pro like some of our GAS guys to put a tubed output stage in it.

[DeadFish]

Hey, thanks for the tip, Mike.
I'll have to wander backwards and find out what that was in a player.

Of course, since splitting an order for SB3 with Alan, I've now got a new toy to figure out....well, once I find out what my son configured as a password to our router!  Damned kids...

Too many things to listen to and not enough ears....

And OH YEAH, hey 'gprro', which issue of Stereophile had that Dead article?
I only found the Feb issue at the bookstore.  Always the 'completist', just thought it would be a good read.

And THANKS, FRANKe for the tip about WMP actually showing the HDCD logo. Never noticed that, but kind of hard to do critical listening with my ol' Logitech speakers.  

Ah, the trials of an audiophool....

Regards, Everybody!

DeadFish

[gprro]

Yeah, it's the March issue, decent article too. Mostly about live recordings. Covers newer releases, the archives, future plans, etc.

[boead]

Bill

Several months back, Scott reported that he found a killer DVD/CD/HDCD/DVD-A/SACD super-value cd player at Best Buy for around $150.  It could easily be modified with black gate output capacitors and maybe even a tube output stage... if you can find someone who knows how.     If you like Jamey's HDCD player, you could invest in the Best Buy unit.  When you get the itch again, I could slap some black gates in it for you.  When you get the itch after that, you could sweet talk a pro like some of our GAS guys to put a tubed output stage in it.

http://www.decware.com/SACD/sacd.htm

[jcrane]

Bill
Things are busy with work and the new girlfriend. We need to schedule some listening time soon. I am working midnights for the rest of the week and then start in on days so anytime the week of Feb 27th would work I think. This way we can enjoy a beer or two while we listen this time. Though the pepsi works too.
I can bring the CD player. If you have any questions on the SB3 just holler, I should be able to help. I love mine and it actually took longer to find my router password than it did to configure the rest of it.
If you are ripping to FLAC or other lossless, I would like to compare it directly to my 320 kbs CBR MP3s.

Jamie
Yes I still want the BH!

[DeadFish]

I hear you talking, Jamie!

The week of the 27th sounds good to me.

I'm starting to rip some of my 'reference' stuff for the SB, and would love comparing it to the HD/CD decoding.  I'm mostly getting the 'drift' on the softwares involved.  It took a day or so to thread my way thru getting this thing working, which culminated (and succeeded) when I finally reinstalled SlimServer, as mine was corrupted and not letting me connect.  Fixed now.

And yes, would like to hear comparison to what you like in MP3.  
One always wonders (or at least I do) whether we actually DO hear 'better' or if it is only wishful thinking.  My son is a staunch supporter of MP3 quality and makes for great introduction to arguing, but doesn't determine anything.
(I note that some folks on the SB board think some of us are elitist wack-jobs on the differences some of us claim to hear...)

 

Then again, they might use the same arguement on HD/CD or Monster Cable differences....  

Will get in touch later on in the week...

Regards,
DF

[Scott F.]

....(I note that some folks on the SB board think some of us are elitist wack-jobs on the differences some of us claim to hear...)  ...

It's amazing how narrow minded some people can be. I had a far juicier response for those guys but in a brief flash of sanity, I decided to use my Columbus analogy. I thought that got my point across without being too much of a turd.

[DeadFish]

You done good, Scott.

I got a chuckle out of your post.  

Grampa always told me :  "You gotta learn to pick your fights!"

and

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; you waste your time and annoy the pig."

They deserve what they believe... as do we all...

Regards,
DeadFish

[Scott F.]

..."Never try to teach a pig to sing; you waste your time and annoy the pig."

Now thats funny. I may just have to 'borrow' that one in the future.

[DeadFish]

Well, there is nothing like getting my own answers from my own ears.

For those interested in this thread, I've finally gotten to hear HD/CD.

Good friend Jamie Crane brought his unit over and we did more than a bit of listening before our gabbing got carried away..;

We compared his Onyx (was it?) unit straight out to the Clarinet pre-amp which feeds the RWTeac, which lead to Altec Model 19s with Bolder Nitro speaker cables.  This was in opposition to my Rega Planet player and Theta DSPro Basic IIIa DAC.  I've been satisfied with my rig, but as said earlier in the thread, my curiousity was getting to me.
Just to throw in another interpretation, I wired my SqueezeBox3 to it as well. thru the Theta DAC
I had ripped a few albums already for the Squeezebox, that were HD/CD, most notably a few Dead albums including Live Dead, Darol Anger's Heritage, Joni Mitchell's Hits and Misses.  

First off, we listened to Live Dead thru the Squeezebox.  Then on my Rega/Theta setup.  Squeezebox loses.  Then the Onyx.  Different, but equal, almost. HOWever, this 1969 Live Dead recording that is remastered for HD/CD seems a little bright in both the Squeezebox and HD/CD player.    
The HD/CD version *seemed* bright, but upon listening, it seemed that way because a lot of the percusion that was not drums was brought out as more dominant, and THAT was a little bright..  Dunno.  For me, give me what I've got.
Moving on to some Joni Mitchell, 'Unchained Melody' showed some real promise.  It sounded similar on both cd players, but again, the SB3 didn't keep  up.  You gotta know though, as it was plain stock on a dirty circuit, I didn't expect much.  There were similarities in the power of bringing some parts of the music out, between the Theta DAC and the HD/CD encoding, but typically in different ways.  I think it might have been here that the DAC sound was 'bigger', a term that came to mind to both of us.
Darol Anger's 'Heritage' was probably most revealing to me in that the playback was almost the same.  Very nice.  I didn't even try the SB3.
Ah, last HD/CD attempted was 'Jazz at the PawnShop'  Damn, it sounded really good on both rigs as well.

We played a bit more music, then I got the bright idea to hear Jamie's transport thru the Theta DAC. Viola! Loverly.  Of course, the HD/CD encoding wasn't taken advantage of, but so what.  Sounded really nice!
I think I know what piece of gear Jamie is chasing next...

 

We got gabbing about our impressions, but we came to about the same conclusions.  Playing fast-and-loose here, as this ended only a half hour ago, but I'm sure I'll forget my thoughts, or at least my motivation if I put off posting.
I get the impression that HD/CD is somewhat of a stop-gap measure.  What it seemed to bring out in encoded cd's was somewhat similar to what the Theta DAC brings to every cd.  I think that seems to be the point.  With HD/CD encoding on your music, and a 'modest' priced cd and system, this is a great way to get music sounding especially dynamic and full.  Any of you folks using a decent DAC and sold on it, probably know what I'm driving at from their native cd player.   Some of it sounded a little bright on my system, but it can be a cruel microscope on sound at times.  I found the SB3 a lot less listenable than on my downstairs system of a Bryston B-60 with Odyssey Epiphony speakers.   I should have tried the Onyx on that system, I guess.  Oh well. NEXT time!

FOR HD/CD music, I could be quite happy with just a suitable player.  But to get that kind of sound out of most of my recordings that are not HD/CD, I'll take a good external DAC, if I had to chose.
But then again, given that the two cd players were approximately in the same cost range, one must consider the cost of the DAC and digital cable.

SO, there you have it 'kids'!  My opinion after an evening of good tunes and righteous company.  
....and maybe a couple of beers...

Hope this answers some questions.

Regards,
DeadFish

[jcrane]

Well put BILL, let me start by saying I am not a cost is no object type of guy. I am more of the 90% of the performance for 10% of the price type guy. I am not cheap, just frugal and a bang for the buck type guy. That said...

The onix player is the xcd88 which is more or less a Music Hall clone. Retailled for around 400 bucks but it has been replaced by the 99 which is the  updated MH-25 clone.
I first want to say I WANT A DAC. No ands if or buts. We listend to some John Mayer Trio - TRY! which is a Live album that is awesome. Nothing like the pop stuff on the radio. Try blues with some wicked guitar.  JMT covers Ray Charles' I Got a Women, and through the CD player I really liked it. We then hooked it up through the theta dac and my jaw just dropped. Everything just worked better. Bottom end was more defined, mids mellowed a touch and the highs smoothed out. Vocals became much clearer  and the entire soundstage expanded ten fold. I new it would be better, but not this much better. And this is after I told Bill I am very content with the cd player for the money. Not now, now I am in need of a good quality DAC.

The HDCD thing surprised me. I thougth the HDCD encoded tracks ended up being quite bright for the most part, even bordering on shrill. I would be scared to hear what a SS preamp would have done to those Altecs with the digital amp. Maybe a tubed DAC could have helped a little too. Time to buy some new toys BILL! The REGA/Theta setup just smoothed it all out. Bill's Altecs are awesome speakers but will reveal just about anything that is done wrong. Of course that means they also will reveal everything done right too!
My conclusions are the HDCD, on a budget system could add something to the game.  There is a bit more air to the recordings but at the expense of being in your face and a tad bright. A modest bookshelf speaker with a dome tweeter would do well with this. Horns though are too much IMHO.
Now the problem is that to get HDCD you need to spend a few hundred on a cd player and most people in this case may tend to invest more for speakers. I am not sure will the line of diminishing returns is at on this setup. But I would imagine that most people would end up buying a 99 dollar cd player from best buy to use in the type of system that would benifit from this.
The SB3 did fall behind the competition tonight but I honestly believe for 90% of the people out there this is the ideal solution. For a bedroom or secondary system I think even us audiophools would be happy. Mod the unit and I don't see how anyone can not own one.

For my money, give me either the REGA or the ONIX as a transport and a quality dac for critical listening and then use the SB3 in every other room in the house from the bedroom to the living room to the bathroom (anyone got some waterproofing mods for this thing    ).

As for the company, it was second to none and the beer was oh so good, even after a weekend of heavy partying. I just wished I did not have to go back to work tomorrow, really enjoyed my time off this week! Bill and I have very similiar tastes in music (even though we are 15 years apart) and I have yet to come away with something new to add to my shopping list.
The converstion did get in the way of the music at the end but good conversation is hard to enjoy by yourself while music isn't. Small price to pay. Thanks again Bill.  Next time we shouldn't wait so long!

I did pick up a Bottlehead II tonight from Bill to use with a sonic Tamp and a new pair of speakers I received from AV123. Look forward to what this brings to the table!

Jamie

[nathanm]

I have a HDCD CD player and I sure do appreciate it.  Two out of the three HDCDs I own sound great on it.  (one of which came with the CD player)  It seems that whenever care is taken towards making a good recording or that they explain the process in the liner notes the result is usually good.  If there's no HiFi Goodness to start with maybe they don't push the HDCD extra special mastering care angle.  Good miking seems to translate through no matter what fiddly bits they are sticking on the end.  

The 3rd CD is overly bright, but it was recorded by Neil Kernon so who can tell for sure if it has anything to do with the HDCD process or not.