Power Cables

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subaruguru

Power Cables
« on: 13 May 2003, 04:37 pm »
Hi. I'm new to this site, and certainly don't quite know where to post, but this seemed like a good place....
Being VERY skeptical about "better" delivery of 60Hz AC, I nevertheless scoured a belden catalog to discover an all-Teflon, 12AWG, shielded cable to set up dedicated lines, as I certainly believed that isolation from RFI and EMI could be important. I bought a bunch of the stuff, installed a few lines, and was surprised by the improvements. Later on I made PCs with the remaining 83802.  Further improvements in clarity and top octave detail.  Yet I found working with the old Schurter '603 to be quite the bitch, so I sat quietly until I accidentally bumped into the new Schurter IEC320 last November. This robust, no-solder IEC got my brain cranking to decide to offer DIY PC Kits to A'goners....
I had decided that the requirements for fine delivery of high-currents of 60Hz AC are few: 1. enough copper; 2. low-distortion dielectric; 3. noise-shielding; 4 grounding control (lately).  So I now market $39 DIY Kits with shielded ("drain") all-Teflon 13, 12, and 11AWG Belden 83000 Series, with an outer SWITCHED third-conductor safety ground for instant comparison on the fly. So many customers have mentioned the benefit of the switchable ground that I know that aspect's quite useful. So be it....
Several folks have asked me to investigate "higher end" offerings, so I've been trying to gather other possible requirements for superior design.  I've noticed that Furutech is VERY careful to eliminate or ground-out ANYTHING ferrous in their connectors, while VD uses steel shot (!) as a resonance damping material!  My purist electrical training would push me toward the elimination of any magnetic materials, although I do find their use interesting. Some have characterized the use of ferrite-loaded cables as "warm". maybe there's some top octave sensitivity rolling off here??
I am also intrigued by the notion of anti-resonant "tuning", as mentioned by Pych, VD, Absolute, Shunyata, and that outboard "twister" coil-maker.
Guess that my outer third conductor construction mimics that already?  Others refer to heat-sinking mass-fillers as useful, postulating conduction degradation correllated with even small increases in temperature.  "Coefficient of Coulomb's friction"  Hmmm.....
Cryo or no? Burn-in or not?  Here's my take:
It's my beilief that the dielectric effects of insulative materials are the major issues yet to be resolved, and that possibly the major effect of cryo-ing a cable is not necessarily that of a resultant change in crystalline-structure within the copper, but perhaps a change in the relationship at the boundary between the metal and its non-conductive insulation.  I'm believe that that's what "burn in" is about, too. That by stressing the copper enough a change in the dielectric "picture" at the metal boundary is
provided...perhaps permanently. Why?....
Back in the 70s and 80's I co-invented a series of fluorocarbon-bodied volumetric-measurement lab tools.  Over time we noticed that the fine calibration of these products (anybody know what a Pipetman is?) drifted, and that some of theese molded-PVDF bodies even developed hair-line cracks! Yikes!  After lots of consultation with DOW and Phillips Petroleum
(makers of the raw stuff used to make the fluorocarbons) we came to learn that the molding, machining, and extruding manufacturing processes result in residuial "stresses" still somewhat locked into the final product. These stresses would slowly resolve over time (at least two years at that point), unless we found a way to "cure" the parts before use.
So we developed a process to stabilize the parts mechanically, resulting in long-term drifts smaller than 0.1%, which was at least 10x better...maybe more....
My thinking is that since the human ear/brain is so exceptionally sensitive as to discriminate the effects of changes in operformance of conductors over time, or after a thermal processing, that it could follow (gulp!) that
a thorough mechanical stabilization of the fluorocarbon insulations used in cables, and thus the reduction of dielectric phenomena (distortions), could only be a good thing.  The process I use to "stabilize" the 83000 Series Belden cables seems to improve their performance, as verified by numerous feedback noting "great improvements right out of the box" and similar.  Will the Teflon insulations eventually "cure" to the same extinction point? I dunno. Does my EST process go beyond time? No idea....
Mass Loading...yikes!  Certainly adds perceived value, eh? I tore apart a cryo'd "warm-sounding" PC in March to discover beneath its nice heavy construction 3 solid 12AWG copper in cheap dielectric (like Romex), sitting in 1.5 lbs of steel S110-size shot.  Glad I only paid $80 for it....
But the idea of supplementary mass as a resonance-absorber AND a thermal sink does have some credence, I suppose.... You guts have any other ideas here?
So, in keeping with the normal electrical requirements for low R, L, and balanced C, as well "stabilized", low-loss fluorocarbon dielectric, sufficient copper, shielding, and an outer switchable ground, I'm going to try adding a high-density, high thermal-conductivity, NON-magnetic anti-resonantmass around a star-quad twisted copper/silver core matrix.  Although cost of materials and labor is highish for a PC, and I've yet to establish an easy way to affix the "pixie", I'm hoping to get these things out direct for about $175 in silver/copper 13AWG or copper 11AWG, and maybe $135 for 13AWG copper.  Connectors will be MODIFIED Schurter IEC320 4781.0100 (so that Bob Crump can't complain about the previously-skimpy blade contact area!), and either the stupendously-good cheap black round Lev AC male or the B&W 5266 from Lev/P&S/Hubbell if you guys insist upon convention.
If any of you are interested in beta-testing, please let me know. I'll build a few more of the 13AWG by month's end.... If either the "Prelude No. 13 in Ag" or the Prelude No. 13 in Cu" is significantly better than the $39 Kits I assemble then maybe this is worth persuing.  Same with the big-amp 11AWG version....
Got any ideas you always thought should be incorporated into a high-performance yet affordable PCs? Please, no snake-oil without at least LOTS of cognitive reasoning. Ha! Thanks. Ernie M

lonewolfny42

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 16918
  • Speakers....What Speakers ?
Power Cables
« Reply #1 on: 14 May 2003, 06:28 am »
Welcome , Ernie from Audiogon.

MaxCast

Power Cables
« Reply #2 on: 14 May 2003, 11:30 am »
First of all, welcome Ernie.  Glad to see you here.  Looking forward to reading your posts and finding out more about your new cables.

Perhaps this post should be moved to Market Square.  You could then make a new post in the Trading Post to list actual info, cost, models,etc.  Market Square is for smaller manufacturers that can not suport or don't want a dedicated circle.  If gives them a spot to talk about their products, announce specials, trials, etc.  Just like you have going here.  That way a forsale add dosen't get bogged down with disscussion.  Also, it gives perspective buyers a place to go to research your offerings.

Any objections??

Marbles

Power Cables
« Reply #3 on: 14 May 2003, 12:29 pm »
Maxcast,

That was my fault.  I moved the post from the Audiocircle here, forgetting about the Market Square  :oops:

I have now moved it to the MS forum......

DaviD

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 3
Power Cables
« Reply #4 on: 15 May 2003, 10:10 pm »
:D Hi Ernie!

Nice to hear from you again!
After a longer time not "hearing" from you on A-gon i got a bit worried...
It's nice to see that you haven't been "sleeping" and are comming up with a few new projects. :P
Keep the good work going! :!:

Best regards,
David D.

KCI-JohnP

Power Cables
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2003, 09:26 am »
Hi Ernie,
   Glad to see a PC guy here!  I have been tossing around the idea of trying out some PC's but there just isn't any dealers around here(Tulsa). I would be interested in some Beta testing if you still need a few people. If you are interested post here or I can send you my email address.  Thanks for your time.
JP

subaruguru

They're rolling!
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2003, 01:35 pm »
After careful listening I do believe I have a winner. Takes me 2+ hours to build one over two days, plus 4x materials cost over the PCKs. Just the high-density uniform particle size NON-magnetic high-conductivity immersion "blanket" costs more than the core conductors in most guys' entire cables! I'm using a quad-twisted silver/copper matrix that's all-Teflon dielectric with double-shield left "floating", in thin Teflon, then the heavy "bath", then a soft clear jacket, then two SWITCHED outer Teflon-dielectric spiraled 3rd-wire grounds.
Star-quad geometry yields aggregate 13AWG for high resolution front end and integrated use. A doubled-up 10AWG (the Fugue N.10 in Ag?!) is envisioned....
AC male is the outstanding open-architecture (air dielectric) balanced-contact force black Lev I currently love, and the recent Schurter 4781.0100 that I modify for dramatically-increased contact area at the spade termini. The "look" is a soft gold with light gray outer braid, black ends...more subdued than the "patriotic" PCK DIY Kits.
Best part is that the 5 footers are only $185, +$20/ft longer lengths.
I have sold two this week, so I guess I'm past the "beta" stage, eh?
I am STRONGLY suggesting that those who already are using my PCK12+G in their system think about relegating it to an amp and consider trying this Prelude N.13 in Ag on their CDP or pre for some interesting synergy. Don't forget to install a Dedicated Line or two with the inimitable Belden 83803 (I have a bunch coming in at $3.50/ft) if you haven't yet) for true synegism. Thanks for your time. Cheers. ErnieM 781 483-3922