Which "high end" CDP did you compare your SB to?

Loftprojection · « **on:** 9 Feb 2006, 06:12 pm »

I'm sure most of you have compared their SB to the guear they had before buying the SB. However, I'd be curious to read some comments from people who have done a head to head of their SB against a "high end" CD player, let's say any CDP above $1000. I currently have an Arcam CD23T which I consider a relatively good source and I wonder if I can envision replacing it by a SB or if most probably the SB, while unbelievable for it's price, will still be a lower quality sound? Please let me know the guear you had when you did the test and also if the SB was modded by RWA, Boulder or other? Or maybe you've replaced the CD player with a SB and an external DAC, if so let me know which DAC.

On another note, anyone had a chance to try a Boulder modded unit versus a RWA modded unit? Which sounds better?

Many thanks.

Folsom · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 06:44 pm »

I would guess that a really nice CDP would sound better than a SB under the circumstances..

Quality disc

Dac in CDP is better than using the SB's or better than external in question

Now the real argument. CDP losses with equal DACs. EAC will get a much better read of a CD then a a CDP which has a small buffer.... EAC will read for hours to make sure it gets the information right if it needs too. Plus you can compare your rips to other peoples' rips.

The big one... Jitter be gone!

You can also now listen to good recordings on crappy CDs.

ctviggen · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 06:52 pm »

A Proceed PMDT transport only ($5k+ original retail) through Bolder Cables with bybee digital IC to an Ack Dack 2.0 ($750?). My modded SB2 won using analog output. Both used reality cables ICs. If I didn't need the Proceed PMDT for video (DVD and a 480i to 480p converter), I'd sell it. I haven't compared to my Shengya CDP, but I will.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 06:54 pm »

A RWA modded SB replaced my onkyo dv-sp1000 universal player (~$2000) which replaced a marantz sa-14 CD/SACD player (~$2000). The SB seriously outperformed the onkyo (which i felt was better than the marantz in most ways) on CDs and held its own against SACDs, laking only a bit of the analog type warmth that SACDs have.

I also had a brief chance to compare the SB to a CEC transport feeding the modded DAC60 GR research is selling. The DAC60 did outperform the SB in detail retreival and overall resolution but had similar timbre. I'd say that's pretty good, considering the DAC60 is being compared favorably to the meitner gear.

Overall, i'm very happy with my SB purchase. It sounds great, and it's tough to beat the convenience (my girlfriend loves it for this reason).

mcgsxr · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 07:07 pm »

I sold off my Bolder Mensa DAC, and Monarchy SuperDIP, and Bolder digital cables, and have retired my (admittedly mid-fi) Nakamichi cd player, following my buying a stock SB3.

I have subsequently sold the stock SB3 to my brother (who lurks here, and should really join up!) and am awaiting some mods on a new unit, sent to Bolder.

I am not going back to discs, but for the experience of ripping them once! Using my cd player now, as I wait for the mods and shipping of the SB3 etc, sucks! The sound is not as good sure, but it is the PITA of getting up and changing cd's that is getting to me!

bubba966 · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 07:16 pm »

Quote from: Loftprojection

On another note, anyone had a chance to try a Boulder modded unit versus a RWA modded unit? Which sounds better?

I've only talked to one person that's had a Bolder & RWA modded SB. He was much more satisfied with the Bolder modded one.

I thought someone else around here had both (zybar?) and sold the RWA modded one. I might not be recalling that properly though as I don't keep 100% current with what everyone around here has and used to have...

miklorsmith · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 07:25 pm »

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=21981&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=rwa+bolder&start=20

Here's that thread.

Loftprojection · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 07:57 pm »

hum, thanks all, lot's of good info.

"A Proceed PMDT transport only ($5k+ original retail) through Bolder Cables with bybee digital IC to an Ack Dack 2.0 ($750?). My modded SB2 won using analog output. Both used reality cables ICs. If I didn't need the Proceed PMDT for video (DVD and a 480i to 480p converter), I'd sell it. I haven't compared to my Shengya CDP, but I will.
_________________
Bob"

Wow. The AckDack has very good reviews and a $5k transport, even if it's a DVD should be considered quite a transport... Very interesting, if you test it agains the Shengya I'd be interesting in reading the result...

"I also had a brief chance to compare the SB to a CEC transport feeding the modded DAC60 GR research is selling. The DAC60 did outperform the SB in detail retreival and overall resolution but had similar timbre. I'd say that's pretty good, considering the DAC60 is being compared favorably to the meitner gear."

Was that the belt driven CEC? If so that transport is amazing and the DAC60 is also quite a piece so I'm not surprised that it beat the SB but just the fact that it didn't sound crappy is pretty good. Too bad you didn't try to feed the DAC60 with the SB vs the CEC transport...

Thanks again guys, keep the info coming.

ctviggen · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 08:03 pm »

My modded SB2 is not with me right now, but I plan on revisiting this when it comes back. I plan on performing the following tests:

PMDT and Ack Dack v. analog output of SB2
Shengya (tube CDP) v. analog output of SB2
SB2 digital out to Ack Dack v. analog output of SB2

I have all the cables ready for this test and specifically purchased two sets of Reality Cables to do the tests. The last time I tested my Shenga versus the Ack Dack, someone rightly told me that I was using two different sets of interconnects. So, I've taken that out of the equation.

gitarretyp · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 08:10 pm »

I'm not sure what danny's setup was exactly, but i'm sure he'd be happy to tell you. I was only at his place for a few hours, and my main goal was to check-out speakers. So, i only briefly compared the transport/dac to the SB and found the dac/transport better, but not overwhelmingly so. I agree that the SB/DAC combo would have been pretty interesting, and it would still be quite a bargain for the SB and DAC (~$1000 for both units modded).

Wayne1 · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 08:14 pm »

Here are a couple of comparisons of modded Denon 2900s (one with the UnderwoodWally{Parts Connexion} mods and one with the full boat Exemplar Audio Mods)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20939

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=21029

Both of these were early versions of the mods and power supplies. Both Mike and Jerry have gone a bit more down the road with mods to their SB2s and power supplies.

By using additional bypass caps with the Sonicap coupling caps and Bybee purifiers, I believe the sound of the SB2 mods have improved quite a bit since the first listening sessions.

The power supply has also come a long way. I feel with the Ultimate PS, the modded SB2 can compete with the best CD players, DACs and even vinyl. Of course it also is getting up there in price. A total package would be close to $2K with all the bells and whistles.

tdangelo · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 08:20 pm »

My Bolder modified SB2 replaced my Wadia 301 that retailed for around 4K - I also had a Unico Unison CD player thats gone. The money from the sale of the Wadia and Unison was welcome and I don't miss them one bit

davehg · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 08:34 pm »

I was hesitant to let it go, but extended listening sessions convinced me that it was bested by the Bolder SB3 with digital mods and the Deluxe PS (soon to be an ultimate, right Wayne?), feeding a Tri-Vista DAC.

The transport had a bit better bass and instrument vocal weight, but the distinctions are supposed to disappear with the upgrades PS (so says those who have tried the Ultimate PS). Other than those slight differences, the SB3 was well ahead of the transport.

Once the word gets out more broadly, I think high end CDP retailers are going to have a tough time. A Mac Mini with 2 La Cie 250gb drives and blutooth keyboard/mouse plus 17"LCD display totalled ~$1300, add the cost of an SB3 $250 plus the Bolder mods and PS (another $1000-$1500 or so for all the bells/whistles) and you have a complete system for $2200-2500. Even with an outboard DAC, a fully modded SB3 system hits under $3000. If you have the computer gear already, much less.

IMHO, only a really high end transport/Dac combo like a DCS (or perhaps the Burmester 01 cd player) playing high res files exceeds the SB3 combo.

I have an offer to my local retailer to bring my system in and compare it with their Esoteric one box and separate system. Just need to find the time.

zybar · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 08:39 pm »

I use my Bolder modified SB2 as a transport and it beat out other transports that ranged in price from $1000-$5,000 in price. Some of the vendors I auditioned or owned include: Metronome, Audio Note, Sonic Frontiers, NorthStar, Rega, Arcam, Audio Research, Cal Labs, and Theta.

George

Loftprojection · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 12:41 am »

Well, what can I say, almost unbelievable, a $300 toy!

tdangelo, I listened to the Unico CDP before I bought my Arcam and I have to say that I hesitated quite a bit between the two. I really liked the Unico's sound.

Seems like the SB with mods or with an external DAC definitely has the potential to best my Arcam CDP.

Darn, I wont be able to sleep tonight! hahaha

tdangelo · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 12:51 am »

Yeah the Unico was a nice unit expecially with some old tubes I got from Holland - very sweet. I use the SB's digital out into my Tact DAC that was modified by Aberdeen Components. Before the DAC upgrade it was closer to the Wadia - now much better

Tony

Quote from: Loftprojection

Well, what can I say, almost unbelievable, a $300 toy!

tdangelo, I listened to the Unico CDP before I bought my Arcam and I have to say that I hesitated quite a bit between the two. I really liked the Unico's sound.

Seems like the SB with mods or with an external DAC definitely has the potential to best my Arcam CDP.

Darn, I wont be able to sleep tonight! hahaha

jermmd · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 01:00 am »

I compared an unmodded SB2 to my Xindak CDP as transports only and the CD player sounded better. I now have a Bolder modded SB3 and I have not formally compared it to the Xindak yet. Regardless, the Squeezebox sounds very very good and its ease of use trumps the CD player.

toobluvr · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 05:48 pm »

Quote from: Loftprojection

Seems like the SB with mods or with an external DAC definitely has the potential to best my Arcam CDP.

Darn, I wont be able to sleep tonight! hahaha

Technology has passed me by and I am still firmly rooted in the cdp camp.
Not because I think it is "better" than other options like SB + DAC, but simply because my priority is vinyl. I have absolutely no experience with the SB and can't comment about it directly. But I can say that while you may be happy with the 23T, it may not be quite the performer you think it is.

I know everyone has different tastes, so no knock on Arcam. But I owned a 33t very recently.......and also, very briefly. I thought my Metronone cd2v Sig.......which itself is now quite long in the tooth....beat it handily. Heck, I even preferred my Audio Aero Prima to the 33t!

I don't think you will have to look too far, or pay too much, to beat your 23t.

Loftprojection · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Feb 2006, 08:13 pm »

Quote from: toobluvr

Technology has passed me by and I am still firmly rooted in the cdp camp.
Not because I think it is "better" than other options like SB + DAC, but simply because my priority is vinyl. I have absolutely no experience with the SB and can't comment about it directly. But I can say that while you may be happy with the 23T, it may not be quite the performer you think it is.

I know everyone has different tastes, so no knock on Arcam. But I owned a 33t very recently.......and also, very briefly. I thoug ...

Well as you say there is a question of taste but also a question of sinergy with your other components. I know the 23T maybe not be the most "vinyl" like player but what it does it does very good and my integrated amp is a tube hybrid Audio Aero so it complements the 23T pretty well. By the way, I believe the 33T, altough as good as the 23T, probably does not have the same sound. The 23T has the famous dCS ring DAC inside but Arcam stopped using it after the 23T to move to Wolfson DACs. It was probably costing them too much royalty to pay for the dCS.

Dokter_doug · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Feb 2006, 02:53 am »

Hi all...I've been lurking the Squeezebox threads for some time and have now decided to go ahead and purchase one. My primary objective is not to replace my current CD player's function of dedicated, late night, "do nothing else" listening (I use a Linn SC into a MacIntosh MX119, MacIntosh power amps and PMC IB1 speakers and surrounds) but to provide greater flexibility when listening to music while doing other things, like reading, playing computer games, cooking etc..

Could anyone offer an opinion as to how a stock SB would stack up against the setup I'm currently using? I intend to feed the SB flac files. Could someone also point me to a thread or source for SB mods, and offer opinions with respect to how significant the mods are?

I'd also like to hear from others familiar with the MX119's DAC's and the possibilities/potential of feeding the Mac a digital signal...not, unfortunately in flac form I believe.

Thank you for the responses.

Doug
PS...is there a limit to the number of albums and songs that can be loaded into the SlimServer program? I have about 3000 CD's and would love to have them all ripped to flacs and at hand for browsing.