The great power cord debate

Marbles · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 May 2003, 03:59 pm »

MaxW, well said.

Val, I take exception to your saying that PC's make more of an improvement than IC's.

In my system the IC's make more difference.

I remember a discussion on PC's over in the cable asylum and it was mentioned that a certain manufacturer used captive cords because he felt that the direct connection to the transformer made more of a difference with his cords than any sub $1000 cord could make with the additional IEC connection in the path.

I do not remember the manufacturer or anything about the cord he used.

Peace and love to all.......

Marbles · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 May 2003, 04:04 pm »

Nathan,

Getting the mostest for the leastest is one of the reasons for AC.

JoshK · « **Reply #22 on:** 13 May 2003, 04:11 pm »

In my system I would put the order of magnitude of effect of cables in the following order (highest to lowest):

1) IC's
2) Speaker cables
3) power cords

All of which I have found to make a noticeable difference. I have tried some that were worse than a decent industrial belden type cord and some better. Its up to you whether you want to venture down these lines but frankly I think the endless debate on whether they make a difference is pointless unless the debaters are willing to listen and trust their ears.

Val · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 May 2003, 04:15 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Val, I take exception to your saying that PC's make more of an improvement than IC's. In my system the IC's make more difference.

I get your point, but wouldn't you agree that yours is perhaps not the most common situation? I have listened to many power cords in many different settings and most of the time they made a huge difference, especially with preamps and CD players.

Val

Marbles · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 May 2003, 04:23 pm »

I don't know that any studies have been done to know that most people perceive that PC's make MORE difference when changing them then the change perceived with IC's. So I cannot agree with your statement.

I cannot disagree with it either, again because I don't know of any census or study on the subject.

I can only speak anectdotely (sp?) and that is to say my experiences have not mirrored yours.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 May 2003, 05:23 pm »

Quote from: Val

Quote from: Marbles
Val, I take exception to your saying that PC's make more of an improvement than IC's. In my system the IC's make more difference.

I get your point, but wouldn't you agree that yours is perhaps not the most common situation? I have listened to many power cords in many different settings and most of the time they made a huge difference, especially with preamps and CD players.

Val

Common doesn't make it right.

Power cords make great differences if your noise control sucks or if you are looking for them to perform as spatial enhancers or tone controls. Get your power right and you will see how good those Absolute's, Asylum and Chris VenHaus DIY designs work. My friend was stumped when my cryo'ed cheapo Absolute power cord sounded better than his $650 BMI Shark!

Like Van Alstine said, the audiophile approaches to line filtration are ridded with Voodoo. I paid $250 in the surplus market for my used Elgar AC regenerator (so did OBF, as he e-mailed me). This is the real deal, used to feed life support devices in intensive care units and surgery rooms. Now, people pay inordinate amoounts of money for the Voodoo. I paid $100 for my 95 lb ONEAC, designed to sacrifice itself if lightning strikes. I saw a new one in eBay for $285. The battery UPS is the best solution, but heavy, cumbersome and potentially dangerous.

Val, get good noise control, cheap, tuned power cords and get yourself some great interconnects. After power and proper room treatments, ICs will become the platform from where your system is referenced. You'll be able to hear any changes you do everywhere else...

Marbles · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 May 2003, 05:24 pm »

Suburuguru made a nice post re: cables, but I moved it to the Market Square forum.

It is very informative and part of it might belong here, and part of it belongs in the Lab, but it is very good reading.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 May 2003, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Suburuguru made a nice post re: cables, but I moved it to the Trading Post forum.

It is very informative and part of it might belong here, and part of it belongs in the Lab, but it is very good reading.

I'm glad to hear that--Subaru is a compulsive self promoter of his merchandise. It's good that he learns that this is not Audiogon...from the start!

subaruguru · « **Reply #28 on:** 13 May 2003, 06:27 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

Quote from: Marbles
Suburuguru made a nice post re: cables, but I moved it to the Trading Post forum.

It is very informative and part of it might belong here, and part of it belongs in the Lab, but it is very good reading.

I'm glad to hear that--Subaru is a compulsive self promoter of his merchandise. It's good that he learns that this is not Audiogon...from the start!

Thanks, Rob. I'll try to figure out how to navigate around here.

Psych, why can one always count on you for a disparagement? If you read the post you'll see that I even credit your input, ignoring your more- flagrant inflammations. Compulsive? Ahem....

All others: I'd really like your input re a new PC design, so I'd appreciate if you could read the post. Thanks.

MaxCast · « **Reply #29 on:** 13 May 2003, 07:18 pm »

Here's the link
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2561

sorry for the longish link, nathan.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #30 on:** 13 May 2003, 07:41 pm »

Compulsive? Yeah, most people here are...look at the number of posts per unit time. I'm less than average!

We do not promote merchandise here. Unlike Audiogon, Audioreview and the Asylum, this is self supported and uncensored--only moderated, as you already experienced. As long as you are here to share *your* knowledge and have a good time you'll do OK. Get to know the 'people'...and my Avatar!

POP UP THE VOLUME!!!

Marbles · « **Reply #31 on:** 13 May 2003, 07:56 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

We do not promote merchandise here. Unlike Audiogon, Audioreview and the Asylum, this is self supported and uncensored--only moderated, Get to know the 'people'...and my Avatar!

Anyone can put up a for sale post in the Trading Post forum.

The site is generously hosted by JohnR (AKA Borg)

While we abhor moderation and censorship, we dislike anarchy even more so occaisionaly we find moderation needed. Also from time to time we find FACILITATION needed. This is where we find a post that while otherwise appropriate belongs in another forum, and we are more than happy to put it where we think it belongs. Our philosophy is that people should be here to have fun, share their experiences and treat others with respect. The people who hang here generally are here for those reasons as well.

My daughter noticed your AVATAR last night and shot me a dirty look

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #32 on:** 13 May 2003, 10:28 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Our philosophy is that people should be here to have fun, share their experiences and treat others with respect. The people who hang here generally are here for those reasons as well.

I hear you--posting in the Asylum and Audiogon that the cryo'ed Asolute Power Cord beat up the BMI Whale earned me unsolicited racist hate mail!

randytsuch · « **Reply #33 on:** 14 May 2003, 02:02 am »

So, did anybody try the powerwraps? Those are the kind of cheap tweaks I like

.

My 2 cents on measuring power cords, trying to measure the difference in power cords assumes you know what to measure, and know how to measure it correctly. Given I do not expect anybody to convince me they can do both (and I am a EE), I will go on believing my ears when it comes to PC's

. On the other hand, I do not buy expensive PC's, I DIY them, I'm too cheap to spend $$$ on PC's.

Randy

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #34 on:** 14 May 2003, 03:16 am »

Quote from: randytsuch

So, did anybody try the powerwraps? Those are the kind of cheap tweaks I like .

My 2 cents on measuring power cords, trying to measure the difference in power cords assumes you know what to measure, and know how to measure it correctly. Given I do not expect anybody to convince me they can do both (and I am a EE), I will go on believing my ears when it comes to PC's . On the other hand, I do not buy expensive PC's, I DIY them, I'm too cheap to spend $$$ on PC's.

Randy

I do like the Wirewraps. They are a beneficial tweak, especially to those who make their own power cords. I like my Jena Labs cryo'ed Tice PC3 better than my Absolute Power Cords. I have not compare it to the cryo'ed version due to lack of cords. Soon...soon...

The Wirewrap smoothens and cleans the musical presentation--more harmonic and less harsh. Eventually I want to have three sets of cryo'ed:

Tice PC3's
Absolute PCs
Ven Haus PCs (with the new custom wire).

That will be plenty to do proper comparisons. I did talk to Lak earlier this evening and he's using two cryo'ed Absolutes for his Wadia transport and Dodson DAC and he's liking the improvement very much so. He's feeding them off an Equi=Tech balanced power transformer hooked to a dedicated line with cryo'ed receptacle.

In my opinion, a cryo'ed receptacle is the most cost effective improvement one can do.

audioengr · « **Reply #35 on:** 14 May 2003, 05:56 am »

Seems to me that there are a couple of simple measurements/actions that would shed some light on the issue:

1) measure the dynamic current with a high and low inductance cord to an amplifier If the current changes, then the low-inductance power cord is making a positive difference.
2) change cords on a component that uses balanced in and out to see if there is any difference
3) Bryston 3BST is one component that seems to be oblivious to power cords - study this design
4) Measure the phase of the current using different cords and sweeping a simple sinusoid. (Power-factor)

If I sit here for an hour, I can probably think of 10 more. If you are an EE, this is not rocket-science...

I plan to do #1 as soon as I get the chance this summer. Each measurement requires the right gear and setup. For instance, #1 needs to be done with a single-capture mode on a DSO using differential probes.

Marbles · « **Reply #36 on:** 14 May 2003, 12:42 pm »

On the previous page I noted that I moved a post from Subaruguru to the Trading Post.

It was correctly pointed out that it should have been in the Market Square forum instead.

I just wanted to let you guys know that the post has now been moved AGAIN, this time to the Market Square forum.

Sorry for any confusion (and apparently I'm confused enough

)

JohnR · « **Reply #37 on:** 14 May 2003, 01:16 pm »

Obviously we're not getting paid enough

avahifi · « **Reply #38 on:** 14 May 2003, 01:27 pm »

Oh well, everybody is talking and nobody is measuring.

Regarding speaker cables and interconnects, much of the differences heard here are easily determined with a capacitor meter. The higher the capacitance of the cable, the brighter and "more detailed" it will sound to the listener. This is because the capacitive load slows down the output circuit and makes the feedback arrive later, which turns negative feedback into positive feedback, peaking the amplifier or preamp response. Poor shielding also adds hum and noise to the system. One can take a "high end" cable with a large capacitive load and add that same load to the output of the preamp or power amp with a 25 cent capacitor of the same value with standard two conductor zip cord used and get the same sonic results. Of course the brightness and detail is wrong, it was not part of the source material, just a non-linearity generated in the equipment trying to drive a capacitve load.

Of course nobody will believe this or actually measure things and try it.

Frank Van Alstine

Hantra · « **Reply #39 on:** 14 May 2003, 01:59 pm »

Quote from: avahifi

nobody is measuring.

Actually, at least one company that I know of IS measuring. Kimber Kable relies heavily on measurements, and uses a very scientific methodology of data correlation to engineer cables.

A great example of this is the Palladian power cord. It virtually eliminates the harmful, audible effects of standing waves from your power source. With that said, I don't own one, and I don't use any Kimber in my system currently. If I could afford it, I certainly would.

The Kimber library is exhaustive with thousands of volumes, and I can attest to the fact that the measuring facilities are second to none at Kimber. From quarter-million dollar network analyzers to a vast array of Tektronix scopes, and TDR's, etc. . . They are out there doing the measurements. They are one of the only high-end cable companies that I know of who are out there to engineer, and design the best cables using real science, and R&D.