[MaxCast]

[This is a continuation of this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=2517

- theborg]

There  are definetly right and wrong ways to handle situations that come up on your forum.  Something Peter (AV reality) was never able to grasp.  Look at the way Curt (IRD) handled the power cord issue in his forum, excellent.

There has certainly been good discussion and ideas in this thread.  I hope all mfgs. get a read of them.  Hell, everyone should read this.

[jackman]

Hi Psychoanimal,

I did edit my post because I didn't like the way it was originally written and thought I'd add a couple things.  Don't want to make this a pissing match, if you are happy with your system, great.  I was merely pointing out that Frank VA doesn't need to justify his decisions to you or anyone.  He chooses to use or not to use components based on what he feels sounds better on his equipment.  If you don't like it and feel you can do better with other stuff, great.  I don't use zipcords or anything like that in my system.  I use Zu Wax cables and Bolder M80's as IC's and digital cables.  I haven't demo'd everything out there but they sound pretty good.  I tried the Zu and the M80's versus cheap wires and thought there was a difference.  Was it a night and day revalation-type difference...nope, but it was a difference.

Secondly, I didn't edit my post after reading your comments.  I edited it immediately after writing it because I decided not to post what I originally wrote.  I didn't have the time to go through each of your comments but, if you don't like my posts or what I have to say, that's your perogative.  Frankly, I could not care less what you think about these matters.  I do like your avitar however.  Very cool.

J

[Psychicanimal]

Jackman:

This matter has been resolved and everybody has--or is supposed to have learned something.  Your reactive comments denote that you took things personal and emotional by not taking the necessary time to read and digest what I wrote--everybody saw that and you can go back an re-read again my postings and your responses to confirm this.

Van Alstine's denial of the undeniable limits the ultimate performance of his gear and you are suffering the consequences--knowingly or unknowingly.  Your last posting tells me that.  As a system gets better and better, it is more revealling of changes done to it, as my expample of switching from an Absolute to its cryo'ed version on my PS Audio Juice Bar.  In my highly revealling system, such a change was very noticeable and resulted in much less glare even though my power delivery/noise control measures are excellent.  Electrons create noise as they travel through a conductor and cryo treatment lowers that noise threshold.

For the second time, do yourself a favor and buy the Highwire Wirewrap tuning device ($25), read the instructions and place it in your power amp's cord.  Get back to us with the results.  Also, use a cryo'ed receptacle to hook up your power amp and tell us about it.  Tell Van Alstine, too.  

Last but not least, it's Psychicanimal: psychic power and primal intensity in one convenient package...

[nathanm]

Van Alstine's denial of the undeniable limits the ultimate performance of his gear and you are suffering the consequences--knowingly or unknowingly.

  It's a freaking amplifier fer cripes sakes!  'Suffering the consequences'...oh my, the melodrama!    My goodness, the owners of AVA gear are suffering and they don't even know it!  They're in pain they can't feel!  Someone better do something!  Call EMS!  Help!

Ahh but seriously... it's kind of a bummer that thread got locked by the admin, it was right on the cusp of a good old fashioned cable fight!  HAR!  I would have to agree with Jackman and John B's comments here; I think it's a bit presumptuous to demand power cord research to the designer of the gear who has obviously made up his mind on the issue.  If the user thinks swapping out the cord is gonna make it better then fine, do it!  If the vendor wants to solder on whatever cord he thinks will do the job it's good enough for me, I'm not gonna argue about how he should add more stuff to jack up the price even higher!  Sheesh!

But I also feel Psychicanimal was not out of line and did nothing technically wrong in his post.  I think he also enjoys any opportunity to list off all his swanky power gear.  And who could blame him?  That shit must've been expensive!  

[jackman]

For the second time, do yourself a favor and buy the Highwire Wirewrap tuning device ($25), read the instructions and place it in your power amp's cord. Get back to us with the results. Also, use a cryo'ed receptacle to hook up your power amp and tell us about it.

.  

Do you have a link or a suggestion as to where this device is available?  I'll get it.  Need to put my system back together first.  It's in pieces in my living room and I'm traveling 5 days per week on business...

Thanks!  If it's an improvement, I'll post the results.  People know me well enough to know I'll do this.  

I appreciate the suggestion,

Jack

[Psychicanimal]

http://www.powerwraps.com/

We  should organize a group purchase...

[avahifi]

Interesting discussion.  However, nobody has shown any interest or indication at all to actually wanting to MEASURE what their magic power cord is doing, or not doing.  They just want to talk about it.  Shades of my old Audio Basics editorial, "testing tires without a pressure gauge."

Frank Van Alstine

[Psychicanimal]

Interesting discussion.  However, nobody has shown any interest or indication at all to actually wanting to MEASURE what their magic power cord is doing, or not doing.  They just want to talk about it.  Shades of my old Audio Basics editorial, "testing tires without a pressure gauge."

Frank Van Alstine

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1051591422&openflup&11&4#11

Had to be me...

[Redbeard]

Van Alstine's denial of the undeniable limits the ultimate performance of his gear and you are suffering the consequences--knowingly or unknowingly

With all due respect, you are offering your subjective opinion about the affects of power cables on your system, and nothing more.  To say it is undeniable is to ask us to take your word on the matter, instead of relying on the our individual knowledge and experience.

By the way, I have no electrical training whatsoever but am a professional scientist.

I find that the more I know about a subject the less likely I am to believe hearsay or wives tales about that subject.  And since I DO have some 'electrical background' (EE for 19 years, digital Integrated Circuit designer for 15 of those years) I know enough about electronics to know when a claim that is made by someone just doesn't make sense.

In my highly revealling system, such a change was very noticeable and resulted in much less glare even though my power delivery/noise control measures are excellent.

I were you and that statement is indeed true, I would have a serious talk with the analyst that architected my power conditioning system, and/or the contractor that installed it. I would talk about remedial measures or a serious refund.

Interesting discussion. However, nobody has shown any interest or indication at all to actually wanting to MEASURE what their magic power cord is doing, or not doing. They just want to talk about it. Shades of my old Audio Basics editorial, "testing tires without a pressure gauge."

This is the most intelligent statement I have read in this entire thread.

-dg-

[edit]  The engineering community has an extremely good handle on what is, and what is not happening in electronic devices infinitely more complicated than audio equipment.  We don't put tens of millions of transistors onto a piece of silicon the no bigger than a quarter, or pack 120,000,000,000 bytes of data into a 3.5" disk drive by relying on mystical effects that are not understood.

The mere suggestion that there is some force at work in a power cable that can not be explained is so utterly naive as to make it laughable.

-dg-.

[Psychicanimal]

Are you the same Redbeard troll from Audiogon who wrote this?

"Sean,

If you are right about the power filter/conditioners that are currently available then this would be a great opportunity for an enterprising entrepreneur to come up with an audiophile grade filter and make a killing in the market.

I think the reason this hasn't happened yet is that it is easier to come up with a fancy, whiz-bang AC cable than it is to do some basic engineering on a power filter."

**********

Lak, 'the world's foremost expert on cryo'ed outlets' was with me when we did the power cord swap.  We both heard the same.  He was also present when my $60 cryo'ed Absolute outperformed the $650 BMI Shark.

There's nothing wrong with my power delivery/noise control rig.  I don't have to be an electrical engineer to hear right.  Cable matters.

FYI, Sean and Deano are the ones that have helped me w/ my noise control rig.  I got a 95 lb ONEAC 220V transformer feeding a 78 lb Elgar AC medical grade regenerator and then on to a 48 lb, copper chassis Clear Image isolation transformer/filter array for $600.  My noise control rig is light years ahead of most audiophiles'...

If you are also the same poster that also wrote this:

"To be fair, I should say that there are probably homes out there with enormous amounts of noise on the AC power. While replacing the power cords to all of your equipment could conceivably make a difference, the proper remedy would be to install a power filter/conditioner."

Then you are bypassing the first and most basic scientific activity: OBSERVATION.

If the answer is no, then you should go ahead and listen to lamp cord and 99 cents interconnects  

[Psychicanimal]

It seems to me that the difference in noise and glare before and after the cryo'ed/non cryo'ed Absolute is due to noise generated by electrons travelling within the conductor.  Phonons, I think they're called.  Again, I would only need a good set of ears to hear the difference...not 19 years' experience of circuit design.

Most of us work w/in budget constraints...can't have perfect transports or DACs with perfect, military grade clocking devices and op amps.

[TheChairGuy]

Heck, maybe growing up in New York I don't see an argument when there is one, but this all seems like drivel.

I think everybody has a valid point if they hear it or believe they do...PsychicAnimal, Frank van Alstine, Jackman, whoever.  

Frank seems pretty stand-up to me...I don't think he gives a whit about any of this.  He believes that his equipment doesn't need fancy power cords - so be it.

As long as somebody doesn't tell him point blank his gear is crap/garbage..let the games roll on.

But then again Borg, you may have seen too many discussion group bloodbaths start just like this one and end up real nasty so I'll give the nod to you and experience on this one.

Anyhow Frank, I appreciate your presence on AudioCircle and hope to hear your gear one day and judge it for myself.

[Redbeard]

Psychicanimal,

For a person who supposedly has a scientific background you display a remarkable lack of appreciation for scientific analysis.  A scientific approach to a power induced problem would be to 1) MEASURE the noise in the offending environment, 2) select the appropriate equipment to remedy the problem, and 3) confirm the solution by MEASURING the results.

Instead, what I hear from you is the following:

I got a 95 lb ONEAC 220V transformer feeding a 78 lb Elgar AC medical grade regenerator and then on to a 48 lb, copper chassis Clear Image isolation transformer/filter array for $600

You seem to be more impressed by the weight of your equipment and how much it cost than by what it might be doing to your power.  Have you bothered to take any measurements yet?

FYI, Sean and Deano are the ones that have helped me w/ my noise control rig.

I don't know either of these gentlemen, but if either of them can provide hard data regarding the effectiveness of your system, then by all means, ask them to share it with the rest of us.

Lak, 'the world's foremost expert on cryo'ed outlets' was with me when we did the power cord swap. We both heard the same. He was also present when my $60 cryo'ed Absolute outperformed the $650 BMI Shark. Lak, 'the world's foremost expert on cryo'ed outlets' was with me when we did the power cord swap. We both heard the same. He was also present when my $60 cryo'ed Absolute outperformed the $650 BMI Shark.

My wife believes in Chinese Feng Shui.  Her Feng Shui master is himself a student of an even more accomplished Feng Shui master.  Thousands, possibly millions believe in Feng Shui. Does that mean that I should believe her when she tells me that together they have accurately predicted her future?

 

I don't have to be an electrical engineer to hear right. Cable matters

I don't have to be a hydrologist to take a drink of water.  The point is ???

"Sean,

If you are right about the power filter/conditioners that are currently available then this would be a great opportunity for an enterprising entrepreneur to come up with an audiophile grade filter and make a killing in the market.

I think the reason this hasn't happened yet is that it is easier to come up with a fancy, whiz-bang AC cable than it is to do some basic engineering on a power filter."

Yes, I made that statement.  Are you debating the accuracy or relevancy of that statement?  If so, please include the context of the statement in your post.

"To be fair, I should say that there are probably homes out there with enormous amounts of noise on the AC power. While replacing the power cords to all of your equipment could conceivably make a difference, the proper remedy would be to install a power filter/conditioner."

Once again, the statement is mine, and I stand by it.  Are you saying that you live in such an environment?  Are you saying that you have installed 221lbs of power conditioners and noise is still getting through?

Are you the same Redbeard troll from Audiogon who wrote this?

Troll? That is an interesting criticism coming from someone who appears to have recourses, but who has failed to take it upon himself to take the basic steps required to understand a phenomenon in which he seems to take a great interest.  A person with a scientific background.  Really??  Instead you prefer to lecture others when they refuse to kowtow to your self-assigned superior rank in legion of audiophiles.  I think I know who is the troll here.

Want to prove me wrong?  Simple.  Provide DATA.

-dg-

[Redbeard]

It seems to me that the difference in noise and glare before and after the cryo'ed/non cryo'ed Absolute is due to noise generated by electrons travelling within the conductor. Phonons, I think they're called.

Quick, I've got to call TSMC and Chartered Semiconductor on my Dick Tracey wrist watch telephone!  I've found a way to increase the noise margin in the chips we make!  This is the key that we have been missing for all these years!!!  HOORAY!!!!!  

-dg-

[avahifi]

This thread is actually kind of intertaining for me to read. There are some points that nead clarification.

I have no problem with the concept that a really clean, pure, noise free AC line source would likely be good for your audio equipment.  Certainly anyone can hear the difference when the line is really dirty (waterbed heater on the line, motors switching, etc) as the buzz will get right thru to the speakers, and thus lesser effects probably are bad too.

However, its the way the audiophlakes go about getting a clean power line that kind of offends me.  The rational way would be to get a good computer line filter, and maybe even a battery fed computer power supply, all at a reasonable price.  The irrational way is to spend big bucks on voodo "audiophile" grade crap that is doing the same thing (maybe) with the silly prices supported only by wild claims of mystic physics not invented yet.

Once, at a trade show, I visited a speaker wire room where they were claiming the wonders of their tri-wound speaker wires (separate windings for the highs, mids, and lows or something like that - but common at both ends).  The inventor claimed that the high wires would only pass highs, and so on.  I suggested we try an experiment - namely strip just the high frequency wires from his cable, wire it to an AC power plug, wet his hands, hold one conductor in each hand, and plug it into the wall AC outlet.  He would be perfectly safe of course because the AC is only 60 hz and his wire would only pass highs, not 60 hz.  I got kicked out of the room.  Reality seems to be very annoying.

Frank Van Alstine

[AKSA]

Frank,

I love it.  Should be more physics, less snake oil.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Carlman]

Quite frankly, I'm tired of experimentation/frustration with cable/componet matching.  Trial and error is boring and doesn't really teach me anything...  The benefit I see to the 'facts and figures' scientific approach is that you can build a repeatable process.  This would probably be easier for cables for components and speakers rather than power cords but, I'm sure that's possible too.

I would think matching cable impedance loads and other frequency reactions to associated equipment would create the best results.  I've got 3 pairs of speaker cable that I've tried and they all sound a little different.  I don't know why but, maybe if I buy enough, I'll find the magic combo.  

If the problem is that all the cables meet all specifications but sound different, then the specifications are too broad.  The only major difference in sound I've noted from power cable was when the cable was at minimum spec.  Replacing the frail, tiny wires that had no shielding to a nice thick, sheilded cable created an audible improvement.

I'd love to have a list of speaker specifications at the crossover or binding posts that would match the output specifications of amplifiers.  Wire would be an easy choice.  I'd like the same with interconnects.   I wish I knew how to measure all the important factors in my system to find the right connection for my system... Is there a book for that?

In any case, there is a science as to why cables produce a change in sound.  I just wish I knew how to measure and apply it.  I think many people think the same way but, find it easier to trial and error test... and that starts to allow psychology (or theology) to become part of the evaluation.  

Thanks for the discussion.

-Carl

[maxwalrath]

OK, I may be a little wet behind the ears when it comes to this hobby, but I really think a lot of the cable arguments are pointless. It seems to me that the two sides of the argument can often be divided into those in pursuit of good music, and those in pursuit of good music as long as the measurements look better. I for one could care less about the measurements, but it's not my place to say anything about those who do.

I didn't get into this hobby to have the amp with the most perfect square wave, or the cable with the least resistance. I started buying quality stereo equipment because I like the way my music sounds to me when I listen to it. If any of you buy audio equipment because you are interested in the measurements, and want differences in cables proven to you on a graph (or wherever you would prove such difference), that's fine too. To everyone out there...it's your hobby, you can buy whatever you want, and justify it however you want, as long as you enjoy doing it.

Just my two cents,
Max

[Val]

Reluctantly intervening again because I don't normally like to discuss subjective vs objective audio due to the incompatible viewpoints. I also think you are all speaking past each other in this thread, and the original discussion was about power cords, whose effects are orders of magnitude more pronounced than those of interconnects and cables or cryogenic processes.

When an audio objectivist tells me about science, I can only say two things. First, audio has to do with psychoacoustics and it is therefore an inexact endeavor because it is related to the social sciences and not exclusively to the exact sciences; it is also inexact because it is subjective in the sense of one person listening and thinking about his/her sensations). Due to both reasons, not everything that is important in audio can be resolved by measurements alone. One of the things I like to read in Stereophile, for example, are Atkinson's speaker measurements, but that is not all that audio means to me, or I would just buy a compact and nice-looking Japanese mini system and problem solved.

Second and most important, if one wants to find out the difference an aftermarket power cord makes, one has to plug it in and listen to it. That is what audiophilia is about, isn't it? Red jug wine has about the same chemical composition of 1985 Gevrey-Chambertin, but they certainly don't taste the same. I stand by the old saying "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

As much as I respect Mr. Van Alstine, I would rather buy a component that I could modify myself by changing power cords. Otherwise it's like I am being forced to use an interconnect or a speaker cable that came soldered to the respective component. In this day and age, I am sure most audiophiles would like to change certain accessories. Would it be that difficult or much more expensive to offer the possibility of plugging in other cords, including shorter or longer cords than the factory ones?

Peace,

Val

[nathanm]

Can you measure a power cord with a meter which has its own power cord?  Where's the aftermarket lab analysis power cord measuring tool power cords?

If positive, subjective psychoacoustic effects are playing a role don't ya'll wanna find out how to incur them without resorting to wasting money on products which do not hold water when put under scientific analysis?  Since nobody seems to wanna cut open their exotic cord to see what's going on, why not fool your brains into hearing things by applying various forms of decorative arts to regular inexpensive cords in the hopes of affecting psychoacoustic changes.  Why anyway WANTS to purchase hundreds-of-dollars wire when similar unadorned wire can be gotten for orders of magnitude less money is beyond me.  As long as you get the nice connectors, the techflex and the shrink tube on there bob's your uncle.  This needn't cost as much as an automobile, right?