[klh]

There are a lot of manufacturers of good acoustic treaments that frequent this circle, and although similar, their products differ in cost, construction and implementation. The problem is it is hard to determine what makes one product better in one circumstance vs another in another circumstance.

What would be great is if we could set up some sort of shootout between those products. Lets say we use Ethan Winer's Micro/Mini/Mondo Trap ensamble, 8th Nerve's Adapt line, GIK Acoustic's 242/244/247 ensamble and Sensible Sound Solution's Bonded Acoustic Cotton/Bass Busters combo.

Each manufacturer would get whatever info necessary for treating a specific room to the level that they would recommend. An independant person on this forum who is capable and has accurate measuring software would test each system independant of each other and have good data to make public.

The idea is the reviewer wouldn't have advertising dollars as manipulation, and if possible, maybe two rooms could be analyzed. One would be a typical rectangle/shoebox room, and another would be an asymmetric room (more typical to a house). The latter would be impossible to replicate, but it may show how one product may be better for one type of room whereas another may be better for a different type. Also, and probably more difficult to determine, we may be able to find out which product privides more help $ for $.

I'm sure they all work well, and depending on one's room, any one of the product lines may work better than the others. This would be a way for us to use unbiased comparisons to help us better decide what we think would work best for our listening environments.

What do your guys think?

[bpape]

I'm game.

Just understand that what you're asking for is more than just comparing treatments.  You're also asking for each of us to provide a design to be implemented.  While this doesn't bother me, I just want to be clear that there is more than just treatment involved here.  Obviously we'd need to know what the intended use of the room is (2 channel, multi-channel music, home theater, studio, etc.)

Also, each of the things you've mentioned have somewhat different usages for different room needs.  Any of the products can provide good results if used appropriately for what the room requires based on size, usage, etc.

What I might suggest is something in addition to the above.  How about comparing the products in similar usages.  For instance, how about each product floor to ceiling in 4 corners?  That way, you're comparing apples to apples and you can get a direct comparison of performance in the same placement.

Obviously my products would be a little different as they're geared toward the DIY'er while the others are finished products.  If someone is willing to do the DIY work to my spec's, I'll be more than willing to participate.

[klh]

Good points. I think this will be interesting. The products seem to take different approaches and are at very different price points. All have very nice strong points. Anyone else interested?

[Ethan Winer]

Krister,

> The problem is it is hard to determine what makes one product better in one circumstance vs another in another circumstance. What would be great is if we could set up some sort of shootout between those products. <

That would overlook many of the important differences between products and the companies that sell them. It would also be difficult in practice since the person doing the "testing" would have to know an awful lot about acoustic treatment and how to assess its effectiveness. Put aside for a moment that you mentioned my company's products. Even though I'm expert with room measurement, I'm not sure I'd want the burden of responsibility for doing such a test. Indeed, if my products are involved I'd expect to be present for any such test to be sure it's done right.

More to the point, who would determine which solution / product is better, and by what criteria? Assessing acoustic treatment requires much more than simply playing tones and reading the results on a meter.

--Ethan

[klh]

Ethan,

That's fair enough. I'm by no means an expert on any of this... and my idea was to make it easier for people to make better decisions. It's difficult to decide what to do WRT which accoustic treatments to get. It's very difficult to make an accurate decision on what product is better for what room. It's not realistic to order a bunch of traps from various companies and return the ones you don't like since shipping this type of thing is so expensive. I realise  it's very difficult to predict what would do better in one circumstance vs another, but it would be nice to have some sort of independant source to refer to.

What would you recommend doing?

[bpape]

I understand Ethan's point completely and agree.  This is part of why I suggested more of a standardized test where the treatments were mounted the same, in the same room, had the same tests run on them, etc.

And to throw another wrench in the works, there is also the subjective side.  Many good things can be garnered from measurements - however, the primary goal is to make the space sound better.  That part is very subjective and will vary from person to person, application to application, fitness for a specific room, etc.

[Ethan Winer]

Krister,

> What would you recommend doing?

Guess!

--Ethan

[Carlman]

After just finishing a major room treatment, all I can say is it would be a royal feat to get me to change much in my room.  It's a LOT of work to change room treatments.  You don't just 'slap 'em in there'...

If you were going to compare room correction devices, I'd probably say the best thing would be to install a complete package of products in the way the manufacturer designed them for that room.

So, get Mfr. 'A' to inspect the room, make the recommendation, and then get him to inspect the work post-implementation.

Then, use an adjacent identical room (in the same building/home) and have Mfr 'B' do the same recommendation and inspection based on that room.

Then, get identical systems installed in each room, playing identical music.  

Then, simply move between the rooms to compare.  

Sound easy?  

               

[Glenn K]

Krister,

> The problem is it is hard to determine what makes one product better in one circumstance vs another in another circumstance. What would be great is if we could set up some sort of shootout between those products. <

That would overlook many of the important differences between products and the companies that sell them. It would also be difficult in practice since the person doing the "testing" would have to know an awful lot about acoustic treatment and how to assess its effectiveness. ...

CHICKEN!!!!!!! Just kidding

I totally agree with Ethan and really guys I think having a test like that is really not going to declare a "better" product.. Thinking about it now, it could be kind of fun to win this little shoot out.. NO NO NO ha ha ha.. I am still with Ethan..

Glenn

[warnerwh]

Just my opinion but this would be far too difficult to set up and do properly by anybody but an expert.  I know for sure that room treatment is a bargain and a necessity if you want the best sound.  If people bought room treatment instead of expensive wire they'd be very happy they did. I use relatively inexpensive wire,under 200 total, in my 15K system and know the sound is the best I've heard anywhere.

[klh]

Well... it was worth exporing. Logistically this would be a royal PITA.

[gonefishin]

Here's just a thought...

   If a shoot-out must be done.  Why not make it one of measurements in a common room.  After all...the results are something that's measurable...and would remove subjective opinions.

   But to take this one step further...have all company's exam pictures and drawing of the "experiment room".  After looking at the same information and asking any questions they feel is pertinent, they can then recommend the placement of the set number (and types) of treatments for that room.  After all...if you choose DIY or Acoustic Company, you're buying not only the materials...but also the knowledge of experience and assessment issues.  SO why not treat this as a package?

   Then...set the treatments up as recommended by each manufacturer and have someone experienced in the field take real life measurements.  

   whatcha think?  

 

   dan

[bpape]

That's exactly what I said earlier.  What you're suggesting is trying to deal with more than just the treatment.  Based on this, how do you extrapolate to how the product performs?    I agree that you're buying more than just a product but you may not be paying for a whole soup to nuts design.

One other thing.  To respond to the idea of having 2 different rooms in the same place being compared - I'd strongly resist that idea.  It's bad enough in 2 different certified labs getting different results.  Trying to compare something like this with totally different products AND designs in different rooms would IMO make any objective results basically impossible.

[Carlman]

I don't think it's a bad idea to get a few different approaches to do room corretion.. and it's a logical progression to want to compare the results of different strategies.

I've spoken with acoustic designers quite a few times over the years and they usually have a very specific sonic goal.  I have experimented with a couple of different approaches and have found something that works for me, in my room.. but it could probably still be better.

I've also listened to the advice of other members, done web research, etc.  to come up with what I think will work for my tastes, in my room.

If you're an analyst, and enjoy that sort of thing, your time won't be wasted in coming up with your own solution.  If you're not, try to visit people's homes where products have been used to treat the room...

But trying to actually do this comparison scientifically (I think) will prove futile.

-C

[richlo]

Here's just a thought...

   If a shoot-out must be done.  Why not make it one of measurements in a common room.  After all...the results are something that's measurable...and would remove subjective opinions.

   But to take this one step further...have all company's exam pictures and drawing of the "experiment room".  After looking at the same information and asking any questions they feel is pertinent, they can then recommend the placement of the set number (and types) of treatments for that room.  A ...

Hey - I live in Joliet and have 2 of GIK's 247 panels and 2 of the 244 panels already..

[gonefishin]

Hi richlo

   Small world, eh!

     How do you like the GIk's?  I've just got some DIY panels in my basement, made from Knauff glass.  I needed to get them done in a hurry, so the fabric only looks so-so.  They're 4" thick bass traps and 2" thick panels.  Maybe I'll recover them when I make the bass traps 6" thick.

   I was surprised how nicely they cut on the table saw.  A nice 45 was simple as can be.  Just make sure your wearing a mask...and upwind from the blade


    dan

[richlo]

Hi richlo

   Small world, eh!

     How do you like the GIk's?  

    dan

Unfortunately I dont have a table saw..let alone alot of tools (not really a handy person)...The GIK are well constructed - they impressed me where it should - I notice a diff immediately. You are always welcome to take a look at them for yourself - send me an email at rhdtv2002@yahoo.com..I live off of McDonough and Hobouldt