What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?

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Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« on: 4 Feb 2006, 06:39 pm »
Hi,

I am using a Bryston BP20 preamplifier with 7B ST's and a pair of PMC IB2. Although the sound is quite good, it just is not good enough to my ears (mid is a bit dull/flat sounding sometimes lacking air and space and the mid/high can be quite 'busy' or even a abit hard when playing at mid-loud levels. Voices seem to be a bit squeezed between the music, I'd like to be able to differentiate the singer better from the rst of the music. I also have some channel balance problems (due to bad volume control?).  I've compared my BP20 to the new BP26 at the Bryston dealer (playing on Piega speakers), but was not expecting better results than from my ancient, BP20 with its volume control problems and humming power supply (it is of the pre-upgradable type) . Sure there was a smoother, more refined sound, with sweeter trebles but still a long way from reality to my ears (the total sound lacking is scale and 3 dimensionality).

What are your experiences with these components and what preamps have you used to good or bad results?

Sure liked to know  :D

Bob Reynolds

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #1 on: 5 Feb 2006, 05:12 am »
I'm using an Audio Research LS-12 preamp (solid state) with a pair of 7B-SST. I don't have any real complaints, but I too am considering a new preamp. It sounds like you may be happier with a tubed preamp.

The 7B-SST (and I assume the 7B-ST as well) has a somewhat low input impedance through the balanced connections, so in picking a tubed preamp one has to pay attention its output impedance.

-- Bob

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #2 on: 5 Feb 2006, 08:18 pm »
Hi Bob,

THanks for your comment.

Did you consider or listen to the LS16mkII or LS25mkII?? (tube-pre's without typical tubes-sound  :lol: ).

nicolasb

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #3 on: 6 Feb 2006, 09:50 am »
Linn Klimax Kontrol, possibly?

Bob Reynolds

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #4 on: 7 Feb 2006, 05:31 am »
Hi Alfalfa,

I have not heard any other ARC preamps. I was considering the new Bryston BP-26, but without a decent review with measurements and no way to do a home audition from my pro dealer I started considering the ARC LS-25.

However, I'm now giving serious consideration to a Tact RCS. I use an M&K LFE-4 bass management controller to integrate an M&K subwoofer and I was considering an analog parameteric equalizer on the bass channel. With a Tact preamp I'll be able to address the entire audio spectrum.

-- Bob

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #5 on: 7 Feb 2006, 04:26 pm »
Thanx for the replies. I have no experience whatsoever with Linn gear. I'll try to look through their dealer network for a dealer nearby and also look on the internet for added information.

The ARC preamps have my interest as well. I've auditioned an LS7 in the past and liked it to some extent. This weekend a friend is coming over with his LS16mkII for a demonstration. Maybe an LS25mkII could be interesting when this dem turns out well.

I have considered the  TACT products in the past. Although I have no experience with them (the dealer never called me back for an audition  :o ) I hesitate to buy digital products because of future compatibility. I DO believe however that room correction systems can be a great benefit for any audio system.

It would be great if Bryston users would comment on their choice of assiciated equipment with their Bryston components and alternatives they tried before they decided to buy it. We don't all exclusively use Bryston in our systems do we?  :?

perose

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #6 on: 7 Feb 2006, 05:01 pm »
Quote
We don't all exclusively use Bryston in our systems do we?


FWIW,
Sonic Frontiers Line3 SE -> Bryston 7B-ST -> B&W N802

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #7 on: 7 Feb 2006, 08:11 pm »
Well, looked at the Linn online but I don't think I'm gonna go for it. The,...... ehh styling and ergonomics don't appeal to me  :o  :lol:

Mike-48

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #8 on: 9 Feb 2006, 05:02 am »
Quote from: Alfalfa
[...] I have considered the TACT products in the past. Although I have no experience with them [...] I hesitate to buy digital products because of future compatibility. I DO believe however that room correction systems can be a great benefit for any audio system.

It would be great if Bryston users would comment on their choice of assiciated equipment with their Bryston components and alternatives they tried before they decided to buy it.[...]


In response, here is what this Bryston owner used and uses now.  When I added the 14B SST to my system, I was using a Cello Palette Preamp. For years I had wanted one for its transparent tone controls, because I have a large collection of (mostly jazz and classical) recordings, and many benefit from tonal balance correction in various ways.  The Cello and the Bryston worked very well together.  The 14B, by the way, was a noticeable improvement over my Conrad-Johnson MF-2300A.

After a time, I sold the Cello and bought a TacT 2.2X RCS as a preamp.  That provided remote control of both tone and volume and also acoustic correction of room effects.  I have never looked back. Yes, future compatibility is an issue, but hey, nothing's perfect!

If I didn't care about tone control, I would look very carefully at the Bryston preamps.  That comes from being highly impressed by the quality of the amp.

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #9 on: 9 Feb 2006, 09:56 am »
Thank you Mike, I sure will  :D

nicolasb

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #10 on: 10 Feb 2006, 10:01 am »
Linn gear is pretty good, if cash is unlimited. There's a highly respected store in London called Graham's Hi-Fi, which specialises in high-end kit. Their £90,000 "dream system" uses Linn gear:

http://www.grahams.co.uk/buying/suggested_systems.htm

They used to recommend Linn pre-amps and power-amps to go with B&W Nautilus 800 speakers as well.

The TacT system certainly gets rave reviews, although it is far more than just a "pre-amp". It goes way beyond mere parametric EQ - it corrects the signal not just in the frequency domain but in the time domain as well. Most reviewers rave about it. But, if you have sufficient funds, some heavy duty acoustic treatments installed in the listening room would (other things being equal) perhaps be a better option. Depends if you have to worry about Wife Acceptance Factor, I guess. "Honey, you don't mind if I cover every wall in the living room with oddly-shaped foam rubber and hang strange drum-shaped objects in the cornices, do you? Cool." :)

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #11 on: 11 Feb 2006, 10:02 am »
Thanks for the reply Nicolas. I guess equipment like the Tact RCS will always be due to discussion because it alters the music signal, no matter how advanced it is done. I have seriously considered the Tact in the past when I could not get my system to sound anywhere near adequate. Now I have a dedicated listening room in a different house and have really good basic sound (at last!) after rearranging the system in another room. It just needs some further improving. It was a big improvement when I sat down closer to my IB2's (almost 3 meter now) and moved the speakers somewhat closer together (1,75 m between the speakers I guess) and at least one meter from side walls. The sound is transparant and very well integrated. Its like a big musical wall now from which you can pick your details. Yes, I like to listen at pretty high volumes    8)  

Maybe I'll just order the BP26 and improve things further by adding some room treatment (yes, the room is MY listening room :lol: ) and better (power) cables. Maybe even adding some extra power amps.... because I THINK that i was hearing some dynamic compression at peak levels... (or could it be the preamps limitations?).

Anyway, what's most important is that I'm enjoying an excellent allround high quality system again after almost 10 years, and thats something I almost had not dared to expect anymore!!

Next week I'll post my impressions of my friends Audio Research LS16mkII preamp, and then.....
    :?:

nicolasb

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #12 on: 13 Feb 2006, 12:31 pm »
Quote from: Alfalfa
Thanks for the reply Nicolas. I guess equipment like the Tact RCS will always be due to discussion because it alters the music no matter how advanced it is done.

That's not really the best way of looking at it. If you want to phrase it in those terms, it is the listening room that "alters the music". Applying acoustic treatments will help reduce the extent to which the room "alters the music". A system like TacT tries to compensate for the way that the listening room "alters the music" by introducing modifications of its own such that when you add the alterations of the room and the alterations of correction system together, they cancel each other out: the music is restored back to what it would have been without the alterations caused by the room.

Basic parametric EQ systems don't always do a very good job of this, because all they do is apply corrections to volume based on sound frequency. For example, if there's a standing wave at 40Hz, then a 40Hz sound played at 60dB from the speakers might be heard as 75dB because the room amplifies it. The parametric EQ system thus scales a 60dB signal down to 45dB, so that the room amplification scales it back up to the correct value.

But there are a lot of problems with this. For starters, the amplification effect of the room varies depending on where you are sitting. If you're sitting at a standing-wave maximum then the sound is louder, but another person sitting at a minimum would hear the sound as being much quieter so the EQ won't help them - quite the reverse. Second, the standing waves have an effect that varies with time as well as frequency: the length of time it takes for a loud sound to decay away to silence, for example, is much longer if there is a resonant standing wave than it is for sounds of other frequencies.

The TacT system goes way beyond parametric EQ, though - it applies correction that varies with time as well as frequency. It can even (I think) compensate for sound reaching the listening position by bouncing off walls rather than taking a direct path (which messes up the "sound stage", for example because sounds that originate from the left speaker end up reflecting off the right hand wall and approaching the listener from his right, which messes up the directionality).

guest2521

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #13 on: 15 Feb 2006, 11:11 pm »
Hi,

Rather than spending a fortune on Tact buy a behringer deq2496 for $300 and use it solely in the digital chain (between transport and dac) for room correction with degradation. Plus add some room treatments.

Re: the preamp. Forget linn. The top linn pre is floored by the bryston - and I am no fan of the Bryston pre as it does sound a bit lacking in the mid to me. Instead use a tvc (tranformer volume control) based preamp like the django, bent audio or mfaudio. The sound is very transparent, vibrant and dynamic with a great mid and you dont have to worry about impedance issues as you do with resistive passives. Plus they cost under $1k for the Django.

Regards,

Nick.

nicolasb

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #14 on: 16 Feb 2006, 10:29 am »
Quote from: biovizier
Hi,

Rather than spending a fortune on Tact buy a behringer deq2496 for $300 and use it solely in the digital chain (between transport and dac) for room correction with degradation. Plus add some room treatments.

While that Behringer device does go a little beyond simple parametric EQ (it allows correction that's dependent on volume as well as frequency) it's still nowhere near the capabilities of the TacT system - nor is any other device which doesn't allow correction in the time domain.

Quote
Re: the preamp. Forget linn. The top linn pre is floored by the bryston - and I am no fan of the Bryston pre as it does sound a bit lacking in the mid to me.

Hm. A little controversial, there. :) You'll find plenty of people who reckon that the top-end Linn pre-amp is the best in the world, bar none. Still, YMMV, as with anything else.

guest2521

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #15 on: 16 Feb 2006, 10:36 am »
You can of course go active and use the behringer crossovers which do allow that. Again at a fraction of the tact cost.

Not impressed by linn amps - the top linn power amp sounded like a nad integrated compared with even the lowliest bryston. TBH I have never heard a piece of linn kit that sounded any good. In my opinion of course.

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #16 on: 18 Feb 2006, 09:45 pm »
Ok, this afternoon I've listened to a friends' Audio Research LS16mkII in my system. The strengths of this beautiful preamp lie in its openess, airiness and transparancy. A lot of records really sounded very impressive although I feel somewhat lost in describing it because normally I would refer to the term 'impressive' when describing the weight, definition and impact of the lower tones of the music (which lends the 'body' to voices for instance). This Audio Research impressed everywhere but in the lower octaves it seemed where it just did its job without any 'boom'. It was impressive to hear the decay of organ notes in what is obiously a big church (St. Eustache/Paris) and to enjoy the different 'colors' of each organ note. Bellissimo!!  Cymbals etc.. were also very clear, transparant and 'sweet'.

My friend liked the overall sound very much and was especially impressed with the PMC IB2's. He said he was surprised that I'd bought these speakers which clearly sound very different to my former KEF 107's (the Kef's sounding very warm/sound while the PMC's have much more definition and transparancy. Both speakers have a lot of weight and (effertless) power, although the PMC's are miles ahead of the Kef's here in definition.

When I put my Bryston BP20 back in the system after the 'demonstration' of the Audio Research I was struck by not being dissappointed with its sound compared to the Audio Research. Sure there were differences which could be judged as 'less refined, sweet and detailed' and 'ss-es' where definitively a bit harder than with the Audio Research, but I could easily enjoy the BP20's sound after switching from the much more expensive Audio Research. How can this be? Maybe the explanation is that the basic 'fit' between the Bryston pre and powers is quite succesfull (duh!) and improvements over this combo in some areas cannot be made without some sacrifices in other areas. Here the important weight and impact of lower notes come into play again which lend the music its foundation (well, my music anyway :lol:. The Audio Research is a very refined and open player but the low end misses the dramatic impact and 'slam' of the Bryston. Maybe I can get some of the 'sweetness' of the Audio Research with better cables and still enjoy the dynamics and power of the Bryston?

I think its time to have a listen to the BP26 in my system now, maybe add the DA option so that I can 'play' with digital equipment like the Beheringer of even Tact (I heard that the Tact does not have a 'lossless' volume control and therefore is still best used with a seperate preamp :roll:  

Hmmmm, I'm starting to sound like an audiophile/fool again :oops: but who cares? It was great enjoying the music!

Sebastiaan de Vries

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #17 on: 9 Mar 2006, 07:58 pm »
Dear all,

There will be a review of the BP-26 in the upcoming German magazine "stereoplay" next month. For the non european readers, I can make a scan of the review when it is arrived ;)

Best regards,
Bas

Alfalfa

What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #18 on: 9 Mar 2006, 08:41 pm »
Nice!  :D

KUB3

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What pre-amp with 7B ST and PMC IB2?
« Reply #19 on: 9 Mar 2006, 10:59 pm »
Careful with valves. I tried a BAT pre, which uses the same military spec valves as AR. In practice it turned out to be too noisey on quiet sections of music with 7B and IB2's. I reverted to the silent BP25 pre.