Kit 2641 problems ???

Timoxx4 · « **on:** 4 Feb 2006, 09:19 am »

Hey guys,

Well i just finished building my 2641's Wired them up and.....

sounds not too good

I don't think i have done anything wrong but they just sound WAY out of phase or something. It sounds like you are in a vacuum and your brain is being sucked out your ears...

I tried wiring one speaker backwards and didn't improve things.

Is there anything that i could have done wrong to make it sound like this? I double checked all the Xovers before they went in and am 100% sure they are all correct.

I don't know what is going on but my old Kenwood 3 ways sound a lot better and they where only half the cost

Please help anyone.

I cant stand the thought of wasting all that money on something that should be inferior to what i already own.

Thanks,
Tim.

MaxCast · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Feb 2006, 11:08 am »

Me thinks you have some wiring issues or maybe a bad part. Do all the drivers work in each speaker?

jackman · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Feb 2006, 01:46 pm »

I agree, you probably made a mistake wiring things. Just go through everything one more time and make sure you have it put together correctly. I often have the same problem when I put things together.

DIY Cable makes great sounding gear. I would bet the problem is with your assembly. Either way, keep us posted on your progress!

J

saphoto · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Feb 2006, 06:10 pm »

I second that, probably the wiring. I had to double & triple check my wiring before the soldering was done. The large woofer inductors, 18 AWG 2.2 mH; Had to make sure the wires were not crossed (from the inductor).

Timoxx4 · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Feb 2006, 08:40 am »

I was thinking of trying a 1.2V battery across the speaker terminals to determine if they are all moving in the same direction. Would this be ok to do?

Only problem is it will be useless for checking the tweeter ( can't see that sucker move

) ?

I will have to pull my Xovers out to check them ( should have gone with external Xovers

)

I hope you guys are right.... And its just a wiring problem.

Will let ya know what i find if anything

Thanks,
Tim.

Timoxx4 · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Feb 2006, 11:43 am »

Well i tried the 1.2V battery thing but that only worked with the woofers. The mids didn't even flinch so couldn't tell which way they where moving.

Anyway, I went over all the Xovers and wiring only to find everything was as it should be. So i have no idea what is wrong. All drivers are working.

I just cant get a focused centre image when listening to stereo music. I have the speakers towed in a lot to try and help out.

When listening to music i can hear the vocals clearly coming from two separate areas instead of centred between the two speakers. It sounds to come from well beyond the outsides of the speakers. Its sounds just like if they where out of faze, but they are not ???

Are there any tests i can do to make sure they are working right? Other than just listening to them and looking over the wiring and Xovers?

kfr01 · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Feb 2006, 03:34 pm »

You wired the crossovers incorrectly.

Take some pictures and we'll try to help.

The 2641s are amazing sounding speakers. Very balanced and very focused.

You were probably over anxious and didn't test -before- soldering, am I right?

Here's what I do:

1) Disconnect both channels
2) Only hook up ONE woofer network. Make sure you can't hear the highs and that it is putting out some nice bass. Do the same for the other woofer network.
2) Disconnect the woofer network.
3) Only hook up ONE midrange network. Make sure you can't hear much bass AND that you can't hear the very highest highs.
4) Disconnect the midrange network.
5) Only hook up ONE tweeter network. Make sure you can't hear ANY bass and that even most of the male vocals cannot be heard.

Repeat for the next side.

My guess is that eventually you're going to hear one that doesn't sound like it should.

Be careful not to turn the volume up until you are 10000% sure that you have the tweeter network right. Bass at high volumes to the tweeter will blow it.

If all the crossovers sound as they should, then check tripple check the phase of the woofer network. You did wire the woofers in parallel, right?

Once you check all that, get back to us... post pictures of the tops and bottoms of the crossovers.

And don't worry... the speakers sound amazing when you get it right.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Feb 2006, 09:21 pm »

Some good advice has been given already. If they sound as bad as you say there is either a problem in the crossover assembly or a problem with a driver.

First... remain calm. I've built things that wouldn't work and often a nights rest and coming back to the problem refreshed works wonders. If you make a mistake in a crossover often you can go back and see it the same way the second or third time. Its like checking for your own grammer/spelling mistake. If you have someone else to look at the schematic and check your work often they will catch something you won't.

Second suggestion would be to hook up the midrange drivers full range. Don't even use a crossover on them. They should sound reasonably good without any crossover because they are virtually a full range driver. The fact they didn't respond to the battery makes me think you have a bad one. They should move just like a woofer with a couple volts of DC.

If tweeter is wired wrong or out of phase it isn't as notable as the midrange being screwed up. If a woofer is wrong or out of phase you have a lack of bass but it doesn't sound really bad. My guess is that you have either a crossover problem or a midrange unit that isn't working. Don't make any assumptions though. Take your time and troubleshoot the situation slowly.

Timoxx4 · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Feb 2006, 01:40 am »

Well you where all right

I found one of the tweeters wired out of phase. I thought i had checked all that out but the wire i used was all the same colour with only a tiny little white stripe on the + wire to tell the difference between the two. I mush have been to disappointed to see it

Anyway, They sound much better now. I just have room issues now that i have already done as much as i can to fix. Its a shame really, These speakers would sound 100 times better in the right room. But for dedicated home theatre use they should work better as they are

So thanks again everyone

Tim.

kfr01 · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Feb 2006, 04:25 am »

Timoxx4:

First, I'm glad you figured it out!

Second, don't feel badly about making the error. I also initially wired one of my tweeter networks incorrectly. It wasn't filtering bass and I experienced the dual midrange point source phenomenon. Fortunately, I hadn't soldered the crossover yet and was only testing at very low volume levels.

Third, on room issues:

Try things as simple as moving your speakers away from or nearer to the wall. Moving the speaker closer to the wall should add some bass bloom. Moving away should attenuate bass some and might sound like a tightening up of the bass as well. Also, experiment with toeing your speakers in. I found that this made my highs a little more pleasant and helped my imaging.

Fourth:

The midrange in the 2641, when used in the manner it is used, is -very- detailed. Crappy recordings will sound crappier than ever. Good recordings will sound better than ever. Pull out your best for demoing these speakers.

Timoxx4 · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Feb 2006, 06:15 am »

Thanks for the tips

Only i am sort of locked in to where the speakers are positioned due to the way the room has been built.

Heres a pic

Those are my old speakers but the 2641's are there now

I have the whole lower half of the walls covered with 1" rigid fibreglass and the entire front wall is covered all over.

The problem is where my seat is. Its right in a big bass null. If i move back about 3 feet and to one side by another 3 feet it sounds good. But then i am too close to one of the surround sound speakers ( rather small room it is). I like to be between speakers but that's where the null is

And as you can see i cant move the speakers.

But i wont bother you guys with this stuff as this is not the place to discuss these sort of topics

Its just another one of those things i will have to compromise on... But the speakers are doing there thing now so I'm happy with that side of things.

I've got a sealed LCR to build now

Should be easier with a pc board for the Xovers though

Thanks again,
Tim.[/img]

markC · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Feb 2006, 03:26 pm »

Sorry to say that with the speaks located inside those wall cabinets, they will never be able to reproduce the sound that they are capable of. A bass reflex box design is ment to be out in the room where they can breathe. For your application, you need speaks designed for in wall installation.

kfr01 · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Feb 2006, 04:20 pm »

Edit: took out all the advise I realized was bad after Kevin's post below.

If the bass response continues to bother you, consider:

http://www.deqx.com/index_content.html

http://www.tactaudio.com/

Cheers!

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Feb 2006, 05:31 pm »

Actually... I started the 2461s as a near wall design. What you see when you are playing close to a boundry is more reenforcement from baffle step and below. How much this affects the response is not as simple as you may think. As a rule of thumb anything within a 1/4 wavelength starts to add reenforcement. The baffle step loss (poor name) is not a hard and fast transition. Also.. what you measure aechoic is not what you get in room. When you measure what you get in the actual room the baffle step loss often is only a couple db.

If I where to design a inwall loudspeaker there really is not much I'd do different. You have to be careful with the very low end response but that is more a function of the box design and tailoring the LF response to deal with the near boundry reenforcement. There is nothing in the actual crossover you can do about situation though. If you are using a dedicated baffle step you would pull that out obviously.

Also... there is nothing inherent in bass reflex designs that would disqualify them as inwall designs operating in 2Pi rather than 4Pi space. You may tune them differently than you would for 4Pi but there is nothing inherent that disqualifies them for inwall use.

Overall... if you are building a home theater you often have to pick non-optimal positions for loudspeakers, subs etc... It is a function of having a lot of conflicting design requirements.

markC · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Feb 2006, 09:49 pm »

I am certainly not an expert, my above post is just an expression of my experiences with different ported speaks. There has not been a single instance where imaging and soundstage width, height and depth were not improved by moving the speaks out into the room. Again, just my experience and that may be quite limited compared to some. That said, very nice looking room timoxx4 and if it works for you, then that's all that matters.

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Feb 2006, 10:10 pm »

Quote from: markC

I am certainly not an expert, my above post is just an expression of my experiences with different ported speaks. There has not been a single instance where imaging and soundstage width, height and depth were not improved by moving the speaks out into the room. Again, just my experience and that may be quite limited compared to some. That said, very nice looking room timoxx4 and if it works for you, then that's all that matters.

You are absolutely right... for 2-channel use moving them away from boundaries cuts the number of early reflections significantly. The problem is that many people have to put the loudspeakers near a boundary. It usually has to do with a female but even those dedicated bachelors have to sometimes choose a non-optimal position.

Timoxx4 · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Feb 2006, 06:10 am »

Early reflections should not be a problem in my room as all the front wall and around the speakers has 1" rigid fibreglass on it. So too dose the lower half of the walls up to seated ear height round the rest of the room.

I have been playing around with crossing them over to some subwoofers. The Xover in my AV receiver only crosses down to 100Hz but even then the sound is a lot better that running the main speakers full range.

The problem with running them full range is the bass. Because of where the speakers are it makes the bass sound off.Sounds out of phase a bit too. But i assure you they are in phase

But when i cross to subwoofers the problem seems to disappear. Maybe because the subs are out in the room a bit more than the 2641's ? You cant see them in the pic because they are IB subs in the floor just in front of the main speakers. In the picture i have a lid on them so i don't put my foot through them while i am working.

Anyway, I am wondering what is some good show off music that is a good test for these speakers? Earlier i remember one of you talking about good quality recordings will sound great but bad ones will sound bad with these speakers.

What is some good recorded music i can try? I don't care what it is. Got any favourites ?

Thanks,
Tim.

markC · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Feb 2006, 07:56 pm »

Patricia Barber-Companion
Diana Krall-The Girl In The Other Room
Mark Knopfler-Shangri-la
James Taylor-Hourglass

Just for kicks, why don't you try pulling the speaks out of the wall and into the room to see if it changes the bass issue.

Timoxx4 · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Feb 2006, 11:07 pm »

Thanks

Any particular tracks from those that are a good test or are they all rather the same?

kfr01 · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Feb 2006, 12:32 am »

I second Diana Krall. I've been happy with the quality of all her cds.