[JLM]

For $348/pair you can internet order Ascend Acoustics CBM-170SEs.  I own the original CBM-170s and love them.  These are standmounts, but the SEs are rated down to 53 Hz.  Add a sub later.  These are so far beyond $300 floorstanders that it's silly.  Except for golden ear audiophiles, these are all you'd ever need.

[Carlman]

1140 was just off the top of my head.  I may have gotten it wrong.  It is the speed of sound in air.  However, this speed various with temperature and humidity so you might see 1135 or something similar depending.

Try this link, plug in 80F and 75F.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/sound/souspe.html

Awesome! Thanks, Jeff!

-C

[xluben]

Seeing as I don't have any money at the moment I guess I'll start by addressing the subwoofer as a temporary solution.  I am in apartment that has 2 bed, 2 bath, and 2 dens.  My computer/soldering station/speakers are in this room.  It is an incredibly small space.  I believe the room is about 10' x 6'  Right now I have my computer facing one of the longer walls with two satellites on my desk, and the sub behind me about a foot to my right facing my back.

OK, I made up a scketch of my room which is somewhat to scale (but not exact).



Speakers 1 and 2 are hooked up to the Main speaker terminals on my reciever and 3 and 4 are hooked up as Remote.  1/2 and 3/4 are set up with L/R opposite from each other so that I can use 1/2 at my computer and 3/4 at my work table.  The sub is connected to the Pre Out of the receiver.  I did some basic FR tests (sound level software, computer mic, test tones) for my sub/crossover and found that my sub drops off sharply below 47Hz and has a large hump centered at 63Hz and there's also a big dip center at 166Hz.  I assume this is due to my satellites not going low enough (the manual says 110-20Khz +/- 10dB).  I have the crossover on my sub set to 200Hz (the highest it goes).

I have my sub's port stuffed very tightly with a hand towel and about 60oz of Poly-fil in the enclosure, but it's still pretty loose and there's lots of standing waves.

I'd like to just get rid of the sub all together and replace it with two full range speakers, but for now I guess I'll try turning it so it fires lengthwise.

[toobluvr]

 It is an incredibly small space.  I believe the room is about 10' x 6'   ...

In a  room that small I certainly wouldn't worry about a sub at all!
Matter of fact, I wouldn't even worry about a pair of floorstanders.

I would get a decent pair of monitors that reach down to around 55hz.  You don't need extension to get the sense of pop, impact and weight.  You need mid and upper bass.  A room this size will reinforce the bass and give you much more impact than you would think possible from a pair of monitors.  And your out of control and loosey-goosey bass will likely be eliminated, and your overall sound cleaner.  A small pair of simple floorstanders would also probably work very well.

For example, my 2nd system is set up in a room that is almost double the square footage as yours (10 x 11).  I use only a pair of small 2-way floorstanders (Spendor S6), and the bass very adequate... impactful and satisfying.  Most importantly, it is  tuneful and clean, and doesn't muddy up other things.  Matter of fact, visitors sometimes ask me where the sub is.  I did try a REL sub for awhile, figuring that it might be needed,  but really found it to be overkill.  The S6 is a floorstander, but it is small and you can basically view it as  a monitor with a built in stand.   Specs say it bottoms out at 48 hz.  Despite not having the deepest reach, I don't feel like I am missing anything at all, and the bass it does have is very satisfying, and in a small room, gives the sense of completeness.

Were I you in your situation, in a small room with peaky bass problems, I would seriously consider going this route.  I would certainly not be concerning myself with a subwoofer.  I think you might just be exacerbating the problem by using one.

[JeffB]

I am not an expert on room modes, but I know that small rooms make room modes much worse.  I am not sure turning the sub to go lengthwise will make any difference.  It might be worth the experiment but bass is pretty omnidirectional so you are constrained by that 6 ft dimension.  And even if it did help 10 ft is not much improvement.

It is of some interest that
1140/6 = 190  #speed of sound / 6ft.
190 / 4 = 47.5
190 / 3 = 63.3
190 * 7/8 = 166.25
These are the exact points of your listed peeks and dips.

You might take a look at this link:
http://www.realtraps.com/art_small_rooms.htm

It may just plain be hard to get clean bass in a room that small.
A good monitor may be the way to go.

Circuit City has some polk monitors for $100 pair.  I think they have a 30 day return policy.  I would give that a shot to see if the approach is worth pursuing.

[JeffB]

Edited out double post

[xluben]

It is of some interest that
1140/6 = 190  #speed of sound / 6ft.
190 / 4 = 47.5
190 / 3 = 63.3
190 * 7/8 = 166.25
These are the exact points of your listed peeks and dips

WOW  

That amazes me!

[Occam]

Dude.... to heck with room modes. You're listening classic near field. Ideally, get yourself a pair of LS3/5a and listen to one of the most sublime holographic experiences ever. Though the LS3/5a s (or Harbeth HPL-3xxx) are substantially over your price range, even used. Consider something built  for your specific needs -
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0106/nearfield9.htm

They've got a little sub to match and a 'risk free' audition policy -
http://www.aperionaudio.com/products/product-overview.aspx

[JLM]

The best sound I could get in college was from headphones, thank about it.

[JeffB]

I thought of a couple of things after my last post.

Many microphones are not designed for the full range sound needed to do a frequency response analysis.  This could possibly explain the analysis not showing bass below 47Hz.  Or pehaps you have some kind of room null below that point.

200 Hz seems like too high of a crossover point.
80Hz is the THX standard.
Anything above about 120 is going to start to capture the low end of human voice which should stay in the mains.
Many subs don't do well over 100Hz, but yours could be designed differently.

What size midrange cone do you have in monitors?  My first reaction is that most monitors go down to at least 80Hz.  If the cones are smaller than 5" then it may be a problem.

Try the crossover at 80Hz.  Drop the volume on the sub down.  It should be at the point where if you drop it any further you notice a thinness to the sound.  Bass is a strange thing, less can often be more.

I bought an inexpensive floor stander recently and became disappointed with it after a while.  I suppose for the price it sounds pretty good.  I recently ran an experiment with an old car woofer sub I had lying around and some extremely cheap single driver 4" inch cones.  I am having better luck with this setup than the floorstander.  It seems to me that high quality 3 way floorstanders are just very expensive.  I am thinking at the lower price ranges that a sub/satellite system is the way to go.  

However, I am not that experienced with a wide range of setups, so don't take my advice too seriously.  I am just kind of hoping that with some tweaking you may discover that your subwoofer is not so bad after all.  But you have lived with, so maybe you know there is no hope.

[xluben]

The best sound I could get in college was from headphones, thank about it.

I have been a member of Headfi.org for about a year now, and I've been through quite a few headphones.  I currently have some of the Koss 60 Ohm line and my beloved Super.fi 5EB's.  The Super.fi 5EB's are considered the bassiest 'hi-end' earphones, and I think they have the best, tightest bass I've ever heard, but they just don't have that visceral impact.  They are also thought of as having good soundstage for earphones, but it still feels very 'in the head' compared to speakers.  I guess I just prefer the sound presentation of speakers to headphones.

I thought of a couple of things after my last post.

Many microphones are not designed for the full range sound needed to do a frequency response analysis.  This could possibly explain the analysis not showing bass below 47Hz.  Or pehaps you have some kind of room null below that point.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, and also many soundcards roll off at the extremes of FR.  But I could definitely hear the bass drop off at that point also.

200 Hz seems like too high of a crossover point.
80Hz is the THX standard.
Anything above about 120 is going to start to capture the low end of human voice which should stay in the mains.
Many subs don't do well over 100Hz, but yours could be designed differently.

What size midrange cone do you have in monitors? My first reaction is that most monitors go down to at least 80Hz. If the cones are smaller than 5" then it may be a problem.

Try the crossover at 80Hz. Drop the volume on the sub down. It should be at the point where if you drop it any further you notice a thinness to the sound. Bass is a strange thing, less can often be more.

Here are links to the manuals for my stuff:


Panasonic SC-HT75

RCA PRO-SW220P

The satellites have a frequency response of:

80Hz-22kHz (-16dB)
110Hz-22kHz (-10dB)

And the sub has a response of:

36Hz-200Hz (no +/-dB stated)

with an adjustable crossover from 50Hz-200Hz.

I used to have the crossover at about 80Hz, but after recommendations from Headfi I stuffed the port, filled the enclosure with Poly-fil, raised the crossover to 150Hz, and also had to increase to volume to get the bass response back to what it was.  I do sometimes pick up the low end of the human voice in the sub which is quite annoying.  As you can see from the manual the speakers I'm using are tiny HTIB satellite speakers.  I think the midrange drivers are only 3"

I bought an inexpensive floor stander recently and became disappointed with it after a while. I suppose for the price it sounds pretty good. I recently ran an experiment with an old car woofer sub I had lying around and some extremely cheap single driver 4" inch cones. I am having better luck with this setup than the floorstander. It seems to me that high quality 3 way floorstanders are just very expensive. I am thinking at the lower price ranges that a sub/satellite system is the way to go.

I figured getting decent bookshelf speakers would be $200-$300 and a good sub would be $200+ so I thought the cheap floorstanders would give me the full sound spectrum for less money, and also would save me some space.  Just getting new bookshelf speakers might increase my sound quality a lot, but it would still leave me with the part of my system that is currently bothering me (sub).

However, I am not that experienced with a wide range of setups, so don't take my advice too seriously. I am just kind of hoping that with some tweaking you may discover that your subwoofer is not so bad after all. But you have lived with, so maybe you know there is no hope.

I am actually taking a lot of interest in you suggestions, Thanks.

[JeffB]

Going against my previous advice, I just saw this.
Polk M20 $80.
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=132512&c=1&cm_re=main%20marquee-_-Save%20up%20to%2015%%20on%20speakers%20&%20subwoofers-_-Polk%202-way%20150-watt%20floorstanding%20speaker

I had to edit this post.  It turns out thats $80 each.  At $160 a pair, well you might get what you pay for.  At $80 a pair it was almost too cheap to not at least look at.

[xluben]

I did see those on the Circuit City website.  Looks like they put some bookshelf's in a very tall enclosure  

Hopefully I'll get into Circuit City/Best Buy/Ultimate Electronics someday soon so I can listen to some speakers (those, JBL's, bookshelf's, anything else in my price range).

Anyone know why it is impossible to view page 4 of this thread unless you click on the piece of paper icon in the 'Last Post' column?

EDIT: Now there is 4 pages     Was that just my computer being wierd?

[JLM]

I suggested the headphones, because of the severe limitations that small room will put on you.  You'll end up doing serious listening via the cans and casual listening via whatever speakers you get.  I'd still go with standmounts.  Its up to you to decide how much to invest now versus waiting and moving up to even better standmounts (that you can add a sub when you get a bigger room).

[Lawler Bb]

Get the Parts Express BR-1 kit for $139/pair plus free shipping.  Buy a pair of 24 inch speaker stands and you will be under $300 total.  You'll have "floorstanding" speakers (monitors on stands) that sound fantastic for the money with real bass down to 40hz.  They will sound much better than anything you can get at Best Buy or similar store.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-640

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=240-740&DID=7

[xluben]

I really wish Parts Express sold a speaker kit just like that one, but with two 6.5' drivers like this:

http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/D3/dayton3.htm

That design (with two of the Dayton 6.5") seems pretty popular online, but the kit you liked does look pretty interesting.  I don't know if I really like the look of those stands, but Parts Express has some others that I kind of like.

[Lawler Bb]

Yeah, I linked to those stands because they were inexpensive.  The high mass stands look much better, IMHO.  

Ah yes, the D3.  A good friend of mine has a pair of those.  The bass is excellent.  Extends into the mid 30s easily, with great dynamics.  The only negative of these or the BR-1s would be the slightly restrained midrange, though for some there may be no issue at all.  Depends on your preference.  If I didn't have a pair of B&W CDM1se and GR Diluceo, I probably wouldn't know the difference.

[MaxCast]

I know these are use and online but check them out anyway.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25346&highlight=

[Cacophonix]

I really wish Parts Express sold a speaker kit just like that one, but with two 6.5' drivers like this:

http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/D3/dayton3.htm

That design (with two of the Dayton 6.5") seems pretty popular online, but the kit you liked does look pretty interesting.  I don't know if I really like the look of those stands, but Parts Express has some others that I kind of like.

I've built the D3. You simply cannot go wrong with these. Very easy to build, great sounding. If you really really want to find fault in it, then you could say that the mids are a little recessed, and the highs can get shrill when pushed VERY hard. But apart from that, they are great. It cost me under $250 incld MDF.

[jackman]

For that kind of budget, I'd look at the new X series from AV123.com.  I believe they were designed by Danny Richie from GR Research (he knows how to make great sounding speakers!) and the cabinets are real wood from AV123, a company known for great cabinets and high quality service.  

You could team them up with a subwoofer like the new one in the X series (I believe Phil Bamberg is designing one for AV123) for a nice full range, budget system.  I don't know the cost but AV123 always offers great value.

For that kind of money, I think it would be difficult to do better.  

J