Advice on Odyssey gear, would it improve on my current gear?

michaelmickj7 · « **on:** 29 Jan 2006, 09:46 pm »

Hello.I've only posted a few things before on AC and this is the first on the Odyssey pages.
I've been researching an upgrade to my Musical Fidelity A3cr pre/amp.
I have a gyrodec and PMC FB1+ floorstanders. I'm looking for more bass weight and a little more more in the mids.The Gyrodec has often been accused of being a little anylitcal and the speakers are monitors as PMC make studio monitors.I believe these speakers like an amp with with grunt.
I am considering buying a Juicymusic Blueberry Extreme, or Melody tube pre amp and the Stratos Extreme, but am not sure if the Stratos would be a big improvement over the Musical Fidelity A3cr power amp.
the price seems very resonable for the Stratos and maybe this is why I don't think it ill be an improvement.It's around £850 in the UK where I live.I think we only have a 10 day trial over here as well and I've heard it takes a while to break in.

I have a Graham Slee Era Gold V phono stage at the moment which can only be used with MM or high output MC(as mine is) and would like the pre amp to have options for MC and MM hence my interest n the Blueberry. How good is the Tempest ? Is the phono stage in it as good a seperate external p/stage and what does it sound like?

I believe you can give your system specs to Odyssey and they will bias the system to your needs for free.What does this mean exactly? Do they alter the tone of the amp to your tastes or just the gain etc. I'm not really technically minded so not sure what they mean on the website.

Sorry for the rather long email and thanks for your kind help,

regards,
Mick.

kfr01 · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Jan 2006, 09:58 pm »

Michael:

I can't comment on Odyssey stuff, but I've been very impressed with the bass weight and midrange detail when I've demoed Musical Fidelity separates.

I speculate that you'd be better served changing your speakers. A single 6.5" driver per speaker handling bass and midrange duties is likely leading to the deficiency you seek to remedy.

Trying to squeeze more from that one driver by changing out expensive electronics is the wrong move, in my opinion, and can only lead to a bleeding of cash.

I might be wrong, but I encourage you to demo some 3-way floor standers where the bass and midrange duties are delegated to separate drivers. My guess is that your problems will be fixed.

But don't let me discourage you from changing out your electronics, I have the audio bug too, and I everything I've heard about Odyssey has been great.

michaelmickj7 · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Jan 2006, 10:17 pm »

Thanks you may be right. It's funny a dealer suggested changing my speakers too and it has been nagging me in the back of my mind that it could be the speakers.The speakers are probably the newest item in my system so I'm a little reluctant to change them for that reason, and the room I listen in is small 14 feet by 10 feet. Because they're transmission line speakers they don't boom no matter how close they are to the wall which to me in my small UK house is a good thing.I don't know of a similar sized speaker which has a bass response of 22hz.
I read a while back someone said in review on audioreview.com that the MF A3cr has no bass, whilst an exaggeration I feel there is an emphasis on the mids and HF but as I've not had too many speakers of note I can't be sure. A professional review said the bass was so clean that you may not notice it. this I think maybe I should have read as "it is a little lean".
Althought the MF amp is rated at 100 wpc I have heard it's not the most pwerful sounding. I think it's designer Mrl Michaelson likes classical music and i think he's deisgned it with that in mind.

kfr01 · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Jan 2006, 10:41 pm »

Michael:

One thing to remember is that in a small room like that you'll rarely be pushing the power limits of that amplifier. My guess is that even listening to rock music loud enough to fill that room and hurt your ears in the process you're only rarely touching 30+ watts.

Also, while I'm sure the PMC has impressive bass response, something about how it is listed is less than straight up. "Usable frequency response." What the heck is that? Is that -3db, -6, -10, -12, -24, what? My guess is that it is somewhere to the right of that scale by 22hz. This still might be impressive for a 2-way design, but in my opinion, if you are a "clean and strong bass guy" 2-way designs rarely cut it.

michaelmickj7 · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 Jan 2006, 10:49 pm »

Cheers kfr01, much obliged it has got me thinking. It's not so much the lack of bass because there is bass there it's the presentation of the music
it's a little bright,if you know what I mean.I don't know if I can explain it very well but the mids and highs seem too prominent in the mix.
I thought by adding a tube pre amp it would add some warmth in the mids and give a fuller sound overall.
I'm really confused now.

Any suggesations for decent speakers with good weighty bass but I could use in a small room like mine?

cheers again.

bunky · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Jan 2006, 11:32 pm »

Quote from: michaelmickj7

Cheers kfr01, much obliged it has got me thinking. It's not so much the lack of bass because there is bass there it's the presentation of the music
it's a little bright,if you know what I mean.I don't know if I can explain it very well but the mids and highs seem too prominent in the mix.
I thought by adding a tube pre amp it would add some warmth in the mids and give a fuller sound overall.
I'm really confused now.

Any suggesations for decent speakers with good weighty bass but I could use in a small room like mine?

cheers again.

the Odyssey Loreleis are a high end two way Loudspeaker that could never be considered bass deficient by any stretch of the imagination.i own a pair of them that replaced my previous Paradigm reference studio 100 v3s and they are very musical from top to bottom and feature a massive crossover and world class Scanspeak midbass and high frequency drivers in beautiful furniture grade cabinets. thanks....WCW III

pfradale · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 01:50 am »

Are you looking for a ready-made speaker or are you open to ordering parts and assembling them? Do you have a price-range in mind?

siowyn · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 02:02 am »

Hi, michaelmickj7,
You mention that you needed more bass? Or do you find that the sound does not have enough weight?
the overall tonality of the sound is pretty much determined by the speaker, I am afraid. The electronics can improve things like the clarity in each respective frequency range: lows, mid, and HF, but cannot really change very much the overall sound.
Adding tubes is opening another whole new variable unless you have got the basics right first. It does add a lot of warmth and lushnes to it but has their own set of problems if not matched probably.
If the speaker already producing a nice deep weighted sound, then by improving the quality of the electronics you can make the highs clearer, smoother, the bass clearer, more defined etc but the overall sound is still pretty much in the same ballpark.
I concur that you must get the speaker right first, and then slowly match the amp to the speaker.
i have a pair of Harbeth (Super HL5) and I love the beautiful and clear midrange with well integrated bass and smooth highs. When I upgraded from a Stratos plus to MONO extreme, I basically got the same sound, but just a whole veil lifted, ie, much better defined bass, clarity in all ranges, and extended HF etc etc, so it sounded like day and night on one hand, but the overall tonality did not change much. But if you put in another speaker, then I am sure the sound will change by a lot.
Hope that helps:)

michaelmickj7 · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 10:20 pm »

Hi sorry for the late reply.It was very late over here in the UK,and it was bedtime I'm afraid. I think what I'm looking for is a less anylitical sound.I love a bit of reggae so need good bass weight, tuneful,but deep.
I'm not that interested in crystal clear highs, which distract from the overall presentation of the music,but seek music with warmth weight rhythm and emotion. I was reading about the Odyssey top of the line speakers but they are only 2 way speakers also, and the rated bass repsonse is 30+ whilst the FB1's are 22 hz.
I really like the FB1's and I think they have been made primarily for small sized rooms. I've got them pushed right up to my wall and they still don't boom, although I've lost a little air and the treble is not as incisive now.
I think they are capable of more and thought a new pre and amp may help.
Would the odyssey speakers be suitable for a small room I notice they have a rear port and presume they need plenty of space.i've also read the treble is quite prominent which could be a little irratating if my cartridge isn't up to the job or there is a bright recording on the t/t.

kfr01 · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 11:03 pm »

Quote from: michaelmickj7

I was reading about the Odyssey top of the line speakers but they are only 2 way speakers also, and the rated bass repsonse is 30+ whilst the FB1's are 22 hz.

I think you're putting way too much stock in a number that probably isn't true. Odyssey is probably honestly listing the range the frequency response stays within +- 3db anechoic. I -highly- doubt your 2-way FB1s are only 3db down at 22hz. Remember, the FB1s are listed as "usable frequency." My guess is that the -3 db anechoic measurement of the FB1's is at least 10db higher than 22hz.

Edit: Indeed, a quick google yields reviews and measurements of the FB1 a full -8db at 30hz. 5db down at 40hz. Not quite 22hz as PMC claims.

Here's one: http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/pmc-fb1.html

I have no doubt these are nice speakers, but they simply aren't anywhere near flat to 22hz as their specs would leave one to believe.

michaelmickj7 · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jan 2006, 11:10 pm »

Having read the regard people have for the Odyssey Lorelie's (?) I wish I had a larger room in which to put them.
I notice they have a rear port I wonder if using a foam bung would enable tailoring of the bass for a small room.Unfortunatley I would need to place the speakers near to the corners of the room.

carusoracer · « **Reply #11 on:** 31 Jan 2006, 06:38 pm »

I own both the Musical Fidelity A3cr Amp and the Odyssey Stratos Extreme latest version. I have also heard the PMC line. Not sure if I have heard your model though. So I still think changing Amps would not achieve what your after. PMC is not known for it's Bass w/out Sub.

I would audition as many speakers as I could first before replacing your Amp. It is a very good sweet sounding Class A Amp. It does a lot things very well. I think it took MF a few models to improve on the A3cr. Especially at this pricepoint. I think the A3cr new was $1595 or $1695.

With that said the Odyssey Amp does offer a bigger soundstage(although the A3cr is quite good), a deeper and weighty bottom end, With a very tight control over your speaker. The midrange is a close call with the nod to the A3cr, the upper midrange and ulitimate top end extension goes to the Odyssey. The A3 does have sweet treble with details but somehow the Odyssey goes further. The big winner with the Odyssey is the slam factor,it takes the cake there. I think it would be very versatile with HT usage.
IMHO, the Odyssey does have a very smooth sound with good extensions in both frequency extremes. Downfall is you must be very,very,patient with 24/7 Burn in, approx 1000 hrs.

Even at that point with the unit always left on it still needs to play for 1hr at a good listening level before critical evaluation. While the A3cr could be left on and at it's best in 20 minutes. YMMV.
Good luck

michaelmickj7 · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Jan 2006, 08:16 pm »

Thanks to everyone once again.I'm sorry if I haven't replied to everyone as the Wife starts to nag me as I always on the internet looking at Hi-Fi.
I probably read about Hi-Fi more than I listen to it !!

I was thinking of a sub as one option but I've also read about the Odyssey $4000 system offer and it seems a really great offer especially as their synergy is already assured, and would take a lot of this messing about away.

I might try the Loreleis in my home for the trial period and be damned with it. I've emailed Klaus to ask if the deals in the US apply over here in the UK and for some advice from him also.

How can the Lorelei's produce deep bass with only a 6.5 inch driver ?

kfr01 · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 Jan 2006, 09:10 pm »

The long throw Scan Speak of the Lorelei is of much higher quality than the more common Vifa in your PMC.

From the 6 Moons review:

"Having clear expectations about the bass hiding in them thar grooves, it didn't take pointy adjustable ears like those fancy Lorelei footer cones above to realize that the quoted 32Hz extension was rather conservative. Yes, conservative. While not moving the same amount of air as the twin 10-inchers of my horns, the sheer extension and muscular demeanor 'down there' -- they're knees on that cover, you know? -- was quite a shock. You probably get 25Hz at minus 5 or 6dB. Wowie."

bunky · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Jan 2006, 09:40 pm »

How can the Lorelei,s produce deep bass with a 6.5" driver ? it is a combination of the most excellent Scanspeak 8545 midbass driver and the Rolf Gemien of "Symphonic line" designed crossover. the bass from the Lorelei,s trumps the bass of my Paradigm reference studio 100 v3s which have three 6.5" woofers per speaker. go figure ? keep in perspective that these loudspeakers are identicle to the $7000.00 per pair Symphonic line Legato loudspeaker except for the fact that the Lorelei,s cabinets are built for Klaus by mr Alain Courteau of Canada and the Legato cabinets are built by Symphonic Line in Germany.i love my Loreleis and they are a permanent fixture in my listening room. thanks....WCW III

michaelmickj7 · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Feb 2006, 07:08 am »

Thanks do you think it's worth trying them in my small room of 10 ft by 14 ft ?. I'm not going to be able to give them much space from the wall boundaries?

pfradale · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Feb 2006, 11:05 am »

FWIW my room is 11 1/2' x 18 1/2' and I run constant directivity horns (16"x16") with paired 15" mid-basses in what looks like an MTM configuration, no problem, so I doubt tiny speakers like the Loreleis will give you a problem in your room.