[kfr01]

Alright... I've been clearing house of all my old audio crap and I've just cleared $1,000.  I expect a few smaller items to gather another couple hundred dollars or so.  

I'll be moving in a few months and don't want to move all this stuff.  I also feel the need to upgrade...

My humble system is as follows:

Computer Source (EAC + FLAC files).
Stock M-Audio Sonica USB to Optical SPDIF to
Marantz 4200 Receiver acting as two channel preamp
Vintage Onkyo Integra M-504 dual mono amplifier
Exodus Audio 2641 Speakers

The optical cable is of low quality.

I am very pleased with the speakers, but the detail of the CSS WR125S midrange is -so- revealing that I'm finally hearing the "digititis" that I thought was a mumbo-jumbo for so long.  

For my system the digititis seems to be a bit of grain and smear in the midrange.  

My guess is that this is primarily due to the USB power powering the Sonica, the low quality optical cable, and the low quality dacs on the Marantz.  

I am also not confident that the Marantz has the most neutral sound for a preamplifier.  There's a world of difference between the "Source Direct" and regular modes, even with all speakers set to large and all tone settings turned off.  This difference does little to give me confidence.

The Onkyo is getting old, has plenty of power, but doesn't exactly feel like it has a firm "grip" on the speakers.  

Now, ideally I'd like to replace everything but the speakers, but the budget probably won't allow for that.  I can nearly match my ebay winnings which will put my budget near $2000.  

Now, I've been exploring a few options:

Option One
a)  Empirical Audio Freeway I2S  -  $550.
b)  Used Perpetual P3A ~$500.  (With the thought of eventual Empirical Audio Mods at a later date)
c)  Used Krell Integrated 300il ~$1300 or Used Musical Fidelity Integrated A300 or something similar.

Option Two
a)  Red Wine USB Select - $500.
b)  Some sort of remote control passive pre or used <$500 pre
c)  Exodus Audio UCD amplifier.  

I guess these really aren't discrete options.  Mix and match at will.  

Any opinions?  Some sort of mix like this -should- help remote the digital grain and smear and give me better grip on my speakers.

Any opinions?

[bubba966]

How about a Squeezebox 2 with analog mods & power supply from Bolder Cables sent straight to a Exodus Audio UCD amp?

That simplifies things (computer>SB2>amp>speakers) and ditching the preamp and using the Squeezebox as your pre is supposed to sound amazing.

[woodsyi]

I am very pleased with the speakers, but the detail of the CSS WR125S midrange is -so- revealing that I'm finally hearing the "digititis" that I thought was a mumbo-jumbo for so long. icon_smile.gif

Without another 0 to that budget, the only way to cure digitis would be an analog front end.    Check out Chairguy's one man crusade. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22938

[kfr01]

How about a Squeezebox 2 with analog mods & power supply from Bolder Cables sent straight to a Exodus Audio UCD amp?

That simplifies things (computer>SB2>amp>speakers) and ditching the preamp and using the Squeezebox as your pre is supposed to sound amazing.

I hadn't thought about that.  Probably not in the same ballpark, DAC-wise, as the Perpetual P3A... but not a bad option.  I'll have to price that out.  Even if I don't like it I could move the SB2 to my gym room and throw a T-amp on it.  

I have to say, I kinda like the user interface of a regular computer for selecting songs, scolling through playlists, etc.  Too bad the SB2 doesn't have a simple TV out and more robust UI.

Any other opinions?  Maybe specifically on those two integrateds?  MF v. Krell?

[Bill Baker]

The Onkyo is getting old, has plenty of power, but doesn't exactly feel like it has a firm "grip" on the speakers.

 Is the 504 the unit with the big pair of meter on the front panel? If so, let me know what you would want for it should you decide to sell it. I know it's an old unit but I always liked the looks of this piece.

[goskers]

I would definitely consider the squeezebox/exodus ucd option.  As bang for the bucks go this would be almost ideal.

[kfr01]

The Onkyo is getting old, has plenty of power, but doesn't exactly feel like it has a firm "grip" on the speakers.

 Is the 504 the unit with the big pair of meter on the front panel? If so, let me know what you would want for it should you decide to sell it. I know it's an old unit but I always liked the looks of this piece.

It is the 504 with the big meters on the front.  Awesome look and nice warm sound.  You have a PM.

[kfr01]

I would definitely consider the squeezebox/exodus ucd option.  As bang for the bucks go this would be almost ideal.

I'm interested in this.  However, I am curious to know whether anyone has put a great DAC like the P3A or Benchmark Dac-1 up against the sound of the SB2... Are you aware of any posts along these lines?

I already have the PC server functionality and don't need the wireless function, etc.  I'd be willing to spend a bit more to get a great dac that can be further modded (like the P3A or Benchmark) if I can get better sound.  That said, if it is ambiguous whether those systems are actually better than the SB2, I'd probably be silly not to consider it first.  

Opinions??? Modded SB2 v.s. Perpetual P3A / Benchmark Dac-1????

[michaelv]

just curious. What is squeezebox?
thanks.

[kfr01]

just curious. What is squeezebox?
thanks.

This:

http://www.redwineaudio.com/SB2_Mods.html

[bpape]

Or just get the digital mods done on the SqueezeBox and add something like the Scott Nixon DAC.  That would fall in to your budget and would be a nice upgrade.

[JLM]

Red Wine Audio modded SB3 w/battery still breaking in matches the performance of my stock Sony S7700 and Ack dAck! v.2, so my guess is that a $500 modded SB3 could match sound quality of a Benchmark.

Another A/Cer traded his $3500 modded/tweaked Shanling player after 5 minutes listening to Red Wine Audio modded SB2 w/battery.


Unless you have a digital input like DACT or the Panasonic receivers I don't know why anyone would bother with only using the digital outputs from SB and adding digital cable and DAC versus spending an additional $200 - 500 to mod the SB.

With internet radio and ripped CDs my system simply consists of SB3, interconnects, amp, CAT5, and speakers.

[Paul_Bui]

I'm interested in this.  However, I am curious to know whether anyone has put a great DAC like the P3A or Benchmark Dac-1 up against the sound of the SB2... Are you aware of any posts along these lines?

I already have the PC server functionality and don't need the wireless function, etc.  I'd be willing to spend a bit more to get a great dac that can be further modded (like the P3A or Benchmark) if I can get better sound.  That said, if it is ambiguous whether those systems are actually better than the  ...

Considering your existing digital music library, definitely consider a modded SB2/SB3.  Worst case, if its analog out isn't up to your taste, you can always use it as an exceptional transport.  I heard a number of happy SB2/SB3 users hooking it up to their DACs.  And there are many who are happy with fully modded analog out.  Caveat:  you won't fully appreciate its potentials until the entire system (emphatially speakers, amp) is up to it.  Anyway, dropping it into most systems will likely bring a very pleasant surprise.

Alternatively, an iPod/iMod would be a very nice source if you are not having a wired/wireless network.

[kfr01]

Wow, I didn't expect the strong case for the Squeezebox as transport + preamp!

Right now I'm teetering on whether or not to order a RWA SB3 or RWA USB Select.

I think it would take more money than I have right now to get myself into a I2S + P3A combo.  Although, I guess I could just start with the P3A and have room to grow...

Ahhh!  So many options, so hard to decide sight unseen or unheard.

[mcgsxr]

I am using a stock SB3 as transport, DAC and pre in my system right now, with great success.

I do intend to have the unit modded, and I also intend on using it as I have it now - just a power amp, and speakers other than this, for my system for the forseeable future.

It is that good, and one remote... well!

[Carlman]

The SB3 w/ RWA's analog mods is a great sounding piece of gear.  The stock unit is good but not 'reference grade' to me.  I'm experimenting with some power supply mods and will compare it to my audio PC.  I think it's in the ballpark at this point.

Regardless of what route you choose, I would build an audio PC and get to work on ripping cd's to flac files if you're agreeable to it.  Choosing how you'll get music off the hard drive will be a fun choice.  Using a good soundcard direct to a preamp sounds very good.

I'm using my main audio PC as a server for the SB3 in my office system.  So, I'm doing things backwards from most everyone else here...

-C

[Zero]

Not to hi-jack the thread, but I am definately thankful someone has posted a question that is one I will be facing within the near future.

I plan on ditching the E-mu1212M and running a higher end DAC out of a more software friendly source from the PC.  So many choices...  Nixon Tube Dac, Benchmark Dac, Apogee Dac, SB-3 .. let alone those USB 'conditioners' from Vinnie. The mind is a blazing....  

I am damned curious to hear the SB-3 with mods, especially in pre amp operation... So many choices.. which would not be a problem if it were not for so little available coinage !

[goskers]

Have you gone to some local audio shops and listened to different front ends?  If not, I strongly urge you to do so.  Getting a good feel as to what difference can be expected between a consumer player to 'hifi' player would be quite useful to you.

Current DAC's have come a long way over the past decade.  Automatically writing off a built in DAC as not being of high enough quality might not be the best idea.  There are better but where does the point of no return come in?

Since you seem to like a pc as your front end and everyone seems to love their modded SB units the download slimserver and see what you think.  The one remote function of having a squeezebox in your system is second to none imo.  If you can live with making your playlists via the slimserver software then I think you have a winner.

Don't forget the ucd amp kit

[kfr01]

So, I started with this:

Computer Source to
M-Audio Sonica USB to SPDIF to
Marantz 4200 Receiver to
Onkyo M504

I now have the UCD400 demo amplifier for a week.  It is better than the Onkyo in the areas of neutrality, bass grip, and separation.  The Exodus is a better sounding amp and a step up, I may purchase one.

I also just received the Perpetual Tech. P3A dac with CI Audio Vac-3 power supply.  (I just couldn't go with the squeezebox software.  I browse around my entire cd collection way too much with my wireless mouse.  Creating playlists in advance simply wouldn't cut it for me.)

The Perpetual Tech. P3A was a -huge- step up from whatever DAC is in my Marantz receiver.  Wow.  This was a much larger step up in sound than the amplifier change.  Bass tightened up like crazy.  Vocals are less grainy.  Highs snapped into focus.  

I have in the mail a used Parasound P3 preamplifier I found for under $500 shipped that will completely remove the Marantz receiver from the chain.  (Thank god).  The nice thing about the Parasound is that it has balanced outputs ... ideal for going into the UCD amplifiers.  I'll keep you updated.

Can I say again:  -wow- the dac sounds wonderful!  Granted, I've never heard any other quality dac in -my- system, but it is a giant space leap of an improvement over the Marantz.

I have a strange hunch both the Parasound and the Onkyo will be sold and that I'll be assembling an integrated Exodus UCD kit.