[fred]

I have recently completed construction of my 1801b's.  Great fun to build - and a bit of work.  The construction was straightforward, but what I have found difficult is the tuning: i.e., getting the port tube just right, and also getting the stuffing right.  After about 3 weeks of this, I think I'm there.  But...some music sounds harsh.  This could of course be the source CD, but  I'd like to be sure.  It would be helpful to get some suggestions from some of you regarding specific CDs and tracks that sound great on YOUR 1801b's. If I find a problem with the sound of these tracks through mine, I'll have an idea that more tuning is necessary. So...your suggestions please!

[MemphisJim]

Welcome to the club, you are going to love your speakers.

One of my all-time favorite demo discs is Mary Black - No Frontiers. Stunning cd. I'd suggest you get this disc and play the first song. I use that song to calibrate my ears to all speakers when I first give them a listen.

If you have a sacd player, try Rubenstein playing Chopin on the Living Stereo re-releases. The tonality is dead on and his playing is pure delerious gold.

More SACD's:

Dylan - Freewheelin Bob Dylan - Bob Dylan's Dream
Brubek - Time Out
Mingus - Ah Um

I mention SACD's because most of my standard cd's don't sound very good on my playback system (Marantz DV-8400, Golden Tube SE40, 1801) as this system easily allows one to hear how deficient standard cd's are. I do have some cd's that are acceptable such as that Mary Black mentioned earlier.

DCC - Jim Croce - Words and Music is another cd, but it is kinda hard to find now.

Pretty much anything on the 100% handmade label, like the Garcia Pizza tapes.

That outta give you something to go on.

Jim

[Ron Stewart]

I'll start with a few audiophile discs. In my opinion, it's hard for these tracks/discs to sound anything but good.

Jennifer Warnes,

The Hunter. Another of her albums, Famous Blue Raincoat, seems to get more press, but I like this one better overall. The track "Way Down Deep" is very nice. I read somewhere (maybe the Madisound board) that the drum is centered about 60 Hz, making it a good bass resonance test.

Holly Cole, Don't Smoke In Bed. "I Can See Clearly Now", and "Cry (If You Want To)" are my favorites, but the entire disc sounds fabulous.
[/list:u]

I'll second Mary Black. The lady can sing. My favorite disk is The Holy Ground, particularly the tracks "Flesh and Blood" and "Dockland" (which has a nice sax solo).

Some other good sounding discs:

Patty Larkin,

Angels Running or A Gogo. Great guitar playing, good, natural vocals.

Suzanne Vega, Solitude Standing, "Language" (all sorts of interesting background instruments) and "Gypsy" in particular.

Neko Case, Blacklisted, "Deep Red Bells" and "I Wish I Was the Moon". Alt-country meets film noir. She has a big voice, and the album is sort of dark, spare, and moody.

Paul Simon, Graceland, "You Can Call Me Al", etc.

Loreena McKennit, The Visit. "The Lady of Shalott" is the standout track for me. Great voice.

October Project, October Project. My wife played that not long ago, and I remember noting how great it sounded. Their music sounds like it comes from another time, long ago.
[/list:u]

I think my system sounds good with most of my discs. In my case, the final piece of the puzzle was replacing my passive preamp with an active one (Parasound Halo P3). That added some warmth and dynamics that were lacking before.

Also, I think it would be useful if you listed some of the discs/tracks that sound harsh (or bad in some other way) to you. That way, if one of us has the same discs, we can describe what we hear vs. what you are hearing.

Ron

[fred]

Also, I think it would be useful if you listed some of the discs/tracks that sound harsh (or bad in some other way) to you. That way, if one of us has the same discs, we can describe what we hear vs. what you are hearing.

At the time I wrote my post, Eva Cassidy's "Songbird" (title of the CD and of the song) sounded harsh.   Josh Groban's "Il Postino" on the CD, "Closer"  wasn't harsh, but it was missing some vocal resonance.  In both cases, the problem disappeared after I made a stuffing change: I added poly batting behind the woofer.  

Another "problem" track that eventually was corrected along the way was Diana Krall's "When I Look In Your Eyes," (name of song and of CD).  The problem was that the sound of Krall's voice in the lower registers sounded wrong, like the speaker was trying to reach to a lower tone than it is capable (I'm sorry I can't describe this well).  This problem was corrected by removing some stuffing and shortening the port tube.

After making my changes, the only CD I noticed sounding sub-optimal was Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" (e.g. "Chains").  Tough to describe the problem, it just doesn't sound as rich as I remember it.  Perhaps this one is due to quality (and age?) of the recording.

I do appreciate the recommendations, and plan to obtain some of these.

[Ron Stewart]

At the time I wrote my post, Eva Cassidy's "Songbird" (title of the CD and of the song) sounded harsh. ... In both cases, the problem disappeared after I made a stuffing change: I added poly batting behind the woofer.

I'm glad you got that problem sorted out. In my book, a system that won't play Eva Cassidy properly isn't worth owning. I just listened to the tittle track. The repetitive background percussion (don't know if it's brushes, or something that shakes) sounds a little etched, but the track sounds fine overall.
 

After making my changes, the only CD I noticed sounding sub-optimal was Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" (e.g. "Chains"). Tough to describe the problem, it just doesn't sound as rich as I remember it. Perhaps this one is due to quality (and age?) of the recording.

I don't own that album on CD. Could it be that the first thousand times you heard that album, it was on vinyl (which, to my ears, is generally richer and warmer than most CDs)?

Ron

[fred]

...Could it be that the first thousand times you heard that album, it was on vinyl (which, to my ears, is generally richer and warmer than most CDs)?

Hmmm... that could be a factor.  I'll have to rummage through my closet and find the vinyl, and reinsert my turntable into my system.

And I've found that Eva Cassidy sounds wonderful on these speakers (now).  There are a lot of good things about these speakers, but one of the top attributes is the sweetness of vocals.  If I weren't so manly, tears would be coming to my eyes.

[kevinm]

Fred,
The best sounding CD I have heard is Rebecca Pidgeon "The Raven", in particular cut # 12 "Spanish Harlem".  Stunning recording.  I use the same resistor setup that Dave uses.  Could be that you might prefer more resistance on your tweters if you do not already have them set that way.

[fred]

Could be that you might prefer more resistance on your tweters if you do not already have them set that way.

I THINK I'm happy with the "standard" resistors; I don't consider the sonics to be bright in any way.  Is there some other reason (other than brightness) one might choose the other resistor options?

(Incidentally, I have a bit of hearing loss at higher frequencies - according to the audiologist).

[skrivis]

...Could it be that the first thousand times you heard that album, it was on vinyl (which, to my ears, is generally richer and warmer than most CDs)?

Hmmm... that could be a factor.  I'll have to rummage through my closet and find the vinyl, and reinsert my turntable into my system.

I don't have 1801s, but I wanted to comment.

Papa Doo Run Run from Telarc sounds great on everything I've played it on.

[Bill Baker]

Just picked up a copy of Joss Stone - The Soul Sessions after a customer brought a copy in with him when auditioning some products.

 Excellent recording quality with a seductive yet powerful voice.

[MemphisJim]

Fleetwood Mac - Rumors is something to go on because I have an older copy of this I purchased used in 1993. I'm guessing there is probably a re-release version, so if you have that one, then my comments below probably are not accurate. In addition, I run my speakers flat with respect to the resistor option. Dave has said that this makes them too bright for most records. I would tend to agree, so I have to taylor my tastes to this.

The standard cd of Rumors (listened to Chain and Never) has the sound quality I alluded in my previous post. It has what I would call "digititus" in the upper frequencies in that they don't sound right or real. The recording is flat and lacks bass. It also is on the bright side but that could be a lack of bass or because I run my speakers flat. I don't hear harshness per se, but I do know that I don't like the way it sounds and will not be inclined to listen to it on this system (fine for mp3's and ipods though).

I also happen to have the DVD-A of this same disc and I put it on right after I played the standard cd. I played it back in hi-res 24/96. There is a night and day difference. The first thing I noticed was imaging and bass, both were better. The next thing was how sharp the instruments sounded and how easy it was to hear the decay during the beginning of Chain. The sound stage was wider and blacker. Lastly, the snare drum attacks during the end of the bass solo at the 3:00 mark sounded like a snare drum, you could sense the skin of the drum coming through. Oh, I think this one is also too bright as I would have preferred a little less treble (I know, I can change resistors).

I also didn't take the time to listen to my copy of the vinyl but I will when I get my turntable set-up in a few months. I suspect it'll sound OK, but slightly thin in bass (from memory, but it's been a LONG time since I listened to it).

I hope this helps.

Jim

[fred]

Indeed it does help; my copy of Rumors is similarly old.  I'm not hearing harshness here - that was a problem with some better recordings before I fixed the stuffing.  Your description fits what I hear: flat; lacking bass; not real.  

I don't have a SACD player, but I do have the vinyl original version.  I won't have time to get the turntable installed until this weekend, but I'll let you know how this record sounds vs the CD.  I have a few others I'll be comparing CD to vinyl: Hotel California and Heart's Little Queen.  

Regarding reference recordings, one track that sounds fantastic through the 1801b's is "Sing, Sing, Sing" from the soundtrack for Swing Kids (if you like big band music, anyway). This is a very good recording, with great drum work - it's really amazing how well these speakers reproduce the bass drums.

[David Ellis]

The commenary above is all very solid IMO.

Some thoughts...

1.  Fred hearing some music sounding harsh is VERY valid.  Indeed, the downside to increased resolution is the lack of mud covering the grunge in soooo many recordings.  I find most recordings sound a bit harsh.  I guestimate that about 3% of recordings are actually good quality. The rest are only good for my car.  

2.  I must concur with the comments about The Hunter by Jennifer Warren.  There are a few tracks that are absolutely incredible on this CD.  Also, any CD from Reference Recordings, Delos, Chesky, Telarc, MDG will be very good.

3.  Reducing the tweeter spl (via increased resistance) will make the grunge less present, but at the expense of some detail.  This is a compromise.  

4.  I do suggest a test.  There are a few errors in crossover wiring that can make the 1801 sound grungy/wrong/harsh.  I can work you through the troubleshooting via telephone, but first I recommend a simple test.  Listen to the speakers in mono to ensure they both sound identical.  They should sound identical.   It's very unlikely that you messed-up both speakers the same way, and this is a good "sanity check".  If the speakers don't sound identical, please call me.  We'll get it figured out.

However, it seems like Fred managed to fix his problems with stuffing.  This is a bit of a surprise.  I heard a modest change with the polyester batting behind the woofer.  I wonder... if some wires got untangled (i.e. an electrical short eliminated) when inserting the polyester batting.  This conveyance comes from personal experience.  

Dave

[fred]

However, it seems like Fred managed to fix his problems with stuffing. This is a bit of a surprise. I heard a modest change with the polyester batting behind the woofer. I wonder... if some wires got untangled (i.e. an electrical short eliminated) when inserting the polyester batting. This conveyance comes from personal experience.

OK, now you got me thinking my perceived improvement was placebo effect, and the root problem is the recordings.  I had suspected the recordings anyway, since the harshness was only with SOME recordings.  

I am not inclined to mess with the high end response by changing the crossover.  I am way too delighted with the imaging and detail I get now, and don't want to risk messing this up.

I listened to a mono recording last night, and the speakers seemed to sound the same.  I need to do some additional mono listening to be sure.
I will probably take you up on that phone call tomorrow.  THANKS

[David Ellis]

OK, now you got me thinking my perceived improvement was placebo effect, and the root problem is the recordings. I had suspected the recordings anyway, since the harshness was only with SOME recordings.

Recordings make a huge difference in sound quality.  The importance of high quality recordings cannot be underestimated.  Those folks in recordings studios have a very wide variety of gear to amplify, process (often intentionally distort), and D to A convert, the sound.  The ambient noise, acoustics and size of the recording room is also extremely important.  Some of the environments are good, but most of them are very sub par.

This isn't noticeable on most stereo/HT systems, or in most automobiles.  Hence, there is little incentive for producing high quality recordings.  The focus of record/CD companies is squarely at the source of their income: Mediocre Stereo and Home Theater.  There is simply because this industry has 99.5% (or more) of the customers and their $$$$.  

You are welcome to call today.  I should be home most of the day.

[gonefishin]

Hi guys

    Yes...I'm posting in the Ellis forum again  


   There certainly are some nice recording out there.  They could be described as being nice for many differnt reasons.  I'm not sure if nice is the best word...perhaps pleasing would be better.

   But to go further into this...I've heard one recording that (to me) seems to have the most natural presentation of tone, dynamics and real world sound ( I've got only one opinion that seems forever changing, please don't fault me for this...or argue with me over this.  But just accept it as mine.  That's what I do )

  To me...even though there are a good number of recording that are pleasing...may seem to offer a presentation (or have attributes) that are artistic interpetation of "an event".  I like this...and it's done many time with good effect.  But fewer have I found to be listening to a recording and think that the sound is so "on" while preserving the tone and dynamics of what is recorded.  

At first...it's not as impressive or in your face as some other recording out there.  But all the elements are in the recording.  Tone, dynamics, detail and a realistic natural presentation.  When I think of neutral (and natural) this recording comes to mind before scores of audio components out there.

   Sorry t go on and on...but I have been impressed by it.  Although my largest complaint is that the CD's simply hold examples of the recording technique.  Many of the songs/pieces are cut off long before they're done.  This could be quite aggrevating when your trying to listen to the music.
   
Ray Kimbers ISOMic recordings


   If anyone has a chance...check it out.  You won't be out much if you aren't as impressed as I was.


     take care,
  dan