[Manowar]

Thanks, John in CR

Hey thanks for all your info so far, I am intereested in purchasing a set of plans from you for your Joint Chiefs...pm me if thats OK.

Now being in Costa Rica on the side of a lush green rainforest up in the mountains over looking the pacific and listening to your favorite tunes as you develop a OB design...sounds pretty cool,...you got it made
I'm jealous

Keep Rockin'  
John (Manowar)

[Manowar]

Hi Richard, Hi Dmason,

Aren't the two of you working on a OB design in collaboration with Louis from Omega speakers and Roger Modjeski- RAM Labs?
Or are these separate ideas? How does or doesn't the Hawthorne Iris fit into the picture

Thanks,
John (Manowar)

[JohninCR]

Thanks, John in CR

Hey thanks for all your info so far, I am intereested in purchasing a set of plans from you for your Joint Chiefs...pm me if thats OK.

Now being in Costa Rica on the side of a lush green rainforest up in the mountains over looking the pacific and listening to your favorite tunes as you develop a OB design...sounds pretty cool,...you got it made
I'm jealous

Keep Rockin'  
John (Manowar)

I'd give it away before selling it.  Unlike every other OB I've done, this one is driver specific.  I tried changing the depth by 2" and it killed the sound, although I'm not really sure why.  What driver do you want to try in it?

BTW,  too hot for me at the beach.  I live in the central valley at about 4500 ft.  It's dry season now, so lows at night in the 60's and highs during the day in the 70's, absolutely perfect.  Shorts and T-shirts for me year round.

John
barefoot in the jungle

[-Richard-]

Hi John (Manowar),

Naturally I can only speak for myself...I have no plans to work on a "commercial"
OB design with Louis and/or DMason...

However, there was quite a bit of talk/suggetion that DMason and Louis might
team up for some kind of work together in that direction...

And then again Louis may feel he has his own path to explore...

Roger Modjeski is intrigued enough in the potential of OB design and the syngery
it creates with his new SET tube amps to consider moving in that direction himself...

DMason brought the potential of OB as a paradigm shift to our attention with his
enlightening and compelling thread The Gravity Well of A Dark Star (Red Wine
Audio forum in AC)...and he has built at least 5 versions of his design for friends
that seem thrilled with the results...

DMason has first hand experience working with his version of the OB using
B200 drivers and bass augmenters...perhaps he would be amenable to being
payed as a consultant for someone wishing to move in the direction that he blazed...
or perhaps some form of business arrangement that would not drain his time
to inconveniently...

I am not trying to second guess DMason...I am only suggesting that his experience
in OB's is already quite extensive and therefore valuable...

My experience on the other hand is rudimentary...I write about the OB phenomena
because it has heightened the thrill of the musical life for Deborah and myself...
our enjoyment of music has never been so wonderful or exciting...

I am also deeply grateful to DMason for his generosity in sharing his "find" with us...
just as I am deeply grateful to JohninCR for his sharing of his discoveries with us...

Where...I ask you where...can you find this kind of generous sharing of information that
can change your musical life...on the cheap...but right here in AudioCircle...

The magazines will have us all spending thousands...change that to throwing away
thousands...on hyped audio junk...and we would still not hear what I am hearing
from a speaker that cost me less than $400 to put together...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[Manowar]

Hi John In CR,

The drivers I am interested is;
1) Hawthorne Iris 15"
2) Visaton B200 8"


Since your Joint Chief is optimized for the Hawthorne driver I will go with that! You had said you like the highs and mids better than the Fostex Fe206e, which I heard has allitle more high end extension than the B200!
I've got to start somewhere. Reading about drivers, from manufacturers specs is not the same as reading about other peoples experience with them. Thats what makes these forums so great. People helping other people with the same hobby and the ultimate final goal of great sounding music systems

Cheers
Manowar

[Manowar]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your reply,  I see that you have purchased the Hawthorne coax from Darrel. It will be interesting to hear your take on these drivers once you get them up and running. Keep us informed!


Best regards,
Manowar

[Wind Chaser]

Richard,

Did you get your drivers yet or are you waiting in line?

John in Canada

[-Richard-]

Hi John in Canada,

Canadian's are some of the nicest people in the world...

Darrel of Hawthorne Audio thinks I should be receiving my pair on Friday...

This Saturday I am hoping to get together with Jim McCarthy. who built my
OB panels for the B200's, in order to experiment with some design issues...such as
adding wings to my present baffles to see what difference they make sonically...

We are hoping to come to some basic conclusions that we can apply to the
Silver Iris drivers before I design a baffle for them...then perhaps sometime next
week Jim can build baffles for the SI drivers and I can begin to break them in...

Meanwhile Darrel has begun a forum for OB exploration...sponsored by his
company Hawthorne Audio...Darrel is really committed to OB's in a most serious
way...which is great for us lovers of the OB  sound...

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forum/index.php?sid=dc26cc078830d6c8f674bedb949ba502

You may want to check that out for more information about these drivers...
for example the chap that JLM visited posts there...and his take on his experiences
with his Silver Iris OB's is somewhat more enthusiastic compared to JLM's
somewhat tempered response...another insight into what it going on...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[Wind Chaser]

Hi Richard,

I can't wait to read your take on the SIs.  I really like the ideas John in CR is advocating.  If it weren’t for his innovative and fresh approach, I wouldn’t consider OBs.  I just don’t have the space for the traditional big pig-ass baffle. I’m seriously giving some thought to using stainless in one of John’s variations. I had great results using it in a BR so I'm thinking it just might be the ticket for an OB too.  I just discovered Darrel’s forum and have read and reread everything here and there on the subject along with some emails I exchanged with John in CR.  Very interesting.

John.

[JLM]

I thought my opinions were quite positive, but realistic.  The Silver Iris units have some serious advantages, but there were too many variables (driver break-in, unknown source, and very ordinary cabling) to make a final call.  But I doubt that they will ever sound as musical or detailed as my Fostex F200A drivers, nor should they be expected to for less than half the price.

Their real strength is in making sufficient bass from an open baffle design for many folks without EQ or a sub or both.  And as a plus, they're highly efficient.

IMO a good open baffle speaker must be more than just an open baffle speaker.

[-Richard-]

The entire aesthetic behind a more comprehensive understanding of Open
Baffle speaker design...its ultimate potential...may lie exactly where DMason
suggests...

Once a Bass Augmenter driver is designed by Darrel to meet his own high
standards of performance...speed and efficiency being two preliminary
characteristics...the door could be opened to incorporate a great many
drivers that we are not now considering because they start their musical life
too high in the frequency range as they march toward their otherwise highly
resolving midrange and upper frequency extension...

In other words it would not be necessary to ask the full-range driver to have
to extend below 100Hz or perhaps even higher...as the situation now exists
with the B200 drivers for example...

This simple solution may revolutionize our thinking about what kind of sonic
life is possible with two highly resolving OB drivers working together to cover
the full frequency range...well almost the full frequency range...it will never plumb
the subterranian depths like a box subwoofer would...but I do not need that kind
of "artificial" depth...or to put it another way...the kind of music I listen to does not
require it!

It is important to keep in mind that we would not be asking the bass driver
to do more than add a delicate and fast lower frequency energy to the sonic
equation...which would relieve both the main OB driver and any SET amp
being used to drive them...here a dedicated plate amp would work very
nicely with the Bass Augmenter driver...and it would not have to be particularly
powerful...a few watts goes a long way with a highly efficient speaker...

Perhaps we could ask Vinnie Rossi to lend his genius to this marriage of SET
and bass amp...he could design a very simple digital amp to drive the 96db
bass driver (only a guess here) with say 10 watts of clean battery power...

JLM, I was not casting shadows on your even handed review of what you were
hearing...only suggesting to anyone who is interested in the Silver Iris coaxial,
that David...the fellow you visited and whose OB speakers you listened to...
has his own take on what he was hearing that day...which might help anyone
who is considering that driver...or getting involved with OB as a solution to
their own audio explorations...to expand their understanding of what is being
offered in the way of personal experience...

I will soon have the opportunity to compare the B200 and Silver Iris drivers...
at least in the limited conditions of my home listening room...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[chadh]

So, how are the Hawthorne Mini Solo speakers?  These use the driver in an open baffle.  How do they sound?  Should I believe that they are not "optimized", so that one is better off buying the drivers and experimenting with the mounting?

Chad

[-Richard-]

Hi Chad,

I am not entirely certain I understand your question...but I will try to see if I can
shed any light on what your question is pointing to...

Darrel feels that his OB speakers...the baffles and his Silver Iris drivers...work
very nicely together to create some of the magic of the OB experience...and anyone
who does not have the inclination to build their own baffles...or who does not have
the time or skills to build their own baffles could purchase his OB's for a modest sum
of money and experience what the OB excitement is all about...

Or...you could build your own baffles...save some money...and exercise your
own taste and creative inclinations...it is that simple...and there is a great deal
of help around...in this forum or Hawthorne Audio's forum to supply some information
toward the DIY solution...

The OB phenomena is taking off and a great deal of experimentation will pick up
speed and intensity as we all move deeper into this...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[konut]

I have been reading this thread with the same fascination that drew me in to the Gravity Well thread. The walls of the castle are being breached by the unconventional serfs with pitchforks and torches. But perhaps alliteration is best left to Richard who's talent for prose I called never hope to match. The only reason for my chiming in is to propose a few ideas of cross pollination for your consideration and discussion. A Visaton B200 in a Joint Chiefs 'cabinet'. And, although it strays from the gist of this thread, a SI in an Omega style aperiodic cabinet. The only other thing I have to add is a suggestion about a possible alternative to the passive power level xpver for the SI. I like the simplicity of the Marchand XM46 passive line level xover.  http://www.marchandelec.com/xm46.html

[-Richard-]

Hi konut,

I like your creative thinking...why not mix and match this driver with that baffle design...
your reference to cross pollination suggests can spring be too far away?

I especially like your reference to the Medieval world...serfs indeed...

Is it any wonder young people today are suffering from a condition of endemic
depression...what is there to look forward to if we see the world through their eyes...

Work to death in an office for the rest of our lives in order to pay off a 30 year
mortgage which keeps us barely able to save from month to month...a 3 week
vacation if we are lucky...college loans that amount to over a hundred thousand
dollars for some graduating students so that they are indentured for years to come...
and the prospect of wars erupting at any time at the whim of aggressive
political policies!!!!!

That is the way it was for our ancestors and not very long ago...the Medieval
world was a static fixed world that revolved around myths that were not based on
the truth...science was outlawed...women were terrorized if they knew the basic
folk medicine that kept us aliive for millions of years...called witches they were burned
alive by the millions and so disease flourished...ignorance and illiteracy also flourished
from the fifth to the twelfth century...a period of 8 hundred years...in which all traces of
the past were rubbed out of our collective memories...it was the Arabs who preserved
the writing of the classic Greeks and explains why science and mathematics flourished
under Sulieman the Magnificant...

Society was organized into a huge triangle...with everyone beneath and a tiny percentage on top...

The ruling classes and the church on top of the pyramid essentially
lived off the labors of the serfs...who toiled night and day without hope of change...
eventually they purchased their freedom under the most humiliating conditions
imaginable by creating first small markets that grew into world markets...it was
capitalism that freed the serfs then...these freed men and women purchased land
from their overlords and formed small villages that become the modern cities of
today...and they started to educate their young away from the churches that
held a monopoly over literacy...and eventually started the modern universities...

So I like your vivid imagery of serfs...which is you and me...storming the citadels...
torches in hand...

The revolution of the OB speaker is precisely the end of high priced speakers
being used as the yardstick of audio excellence...you no longer have to be rich
to enjoy superior audio sound...it is the end of the audio privileged classes...

Marchand's prices are a bit steep...the XM46 Passive Line Level Crossover
Network looks very interesting...but at $600.00 it is out of my reach...and there
is still the question of how much amplifier power it would soak up as the signal
passes through it to the drivers...a serious consideration for me...

Warm Regards  -Richard-

[JLM]

Richard,

No offense taken, but you're counting chickens before they're hatched.  I like Darrel and Dave, but I don't think you don't really know them, and I don't believe you've yet to hear the Silver Iris.  You seem to have put all three on a pedestal without knowing them.  The real miracle of the Silver Iris is in Eminence offering limited production runs of the drivers out of their stock at a good price to boot.

The amount/depth of bass produced amazed me, but the quality of sound was disappointing.  If as DMason says, the B200 is more musical than the F200A, then IMO the B200 would be a couple of steps up the audiophile ladder than the Silver Iris because the F200A was all over the Silver Iris.

Speaking of the middle ages, sometimes Richard you remind me of the Pied Piper, who can lure the innocents away with enthusiasm and eloquence.

[konut]

Richard

As you so astutely ascertained there IS an insertion loss(from what I've been able to glean, 1db) with the XM46 but it is at line level. An ever so slight increase in gain at your preamp will address that. The absolute gain of the amp will not be affected. Indeed, as you'd be required to use 2 separate stereo amps for the lows and highs, a more appropriate amp for each could be implimented. For instance one of your beloved tubed amps for the highs and a tripath iron grip amp for the lows. The benefit being now each amp sees a simpler load and, as each amp is only called upon to reproduce only a portion of the audio spectrum, more headroom and less IM distortion. Its a win win. As to cost, yes a fully assembled stereo xover with level controls is in the $600 range. But that isn't really required. Thankfully Marchand has allowed us the freedom to purchase the modules separately at $65 ea. 4 would be required. 2 low pass and 2 high pass. As only a simple resistor would be needed to match the efficiency of the woofer and tweeter once the correct value was ascertained, the level controls would not be needed. And even the resistor wouldn't be required if there was a level control on the high freq. amp. A simple Y cord from each channel of your preamp to each low and high module affixed directly to the input of the respective amps is what I envision. I can think of at least 2 individuals who might be interested in such a project at a modest cost over and above the cost of the modules themselves. I think you can guess who.

[Wind Chaser]

Richard,

The amount/depth of bass produced amazed me, but the quality of sound was disappointing.  

But didn't you concede that the source and cabling were less than ideal and that the drivers were not broken in?  What would happen if you listened to F200As under the same conditions?

[JohninCR]

JLM,

Comparing the Iris to any other driver is going to be apples and oranges.  That's because with the right baffle, it's the only drive unit you can just plug speaker wires into on an OB and have a complete speaker.  There may be some vintage 15 coax units that were designed for open back boxes that can perform similarly, but they're not something you can pick up the phone or go online and order for less than $300.

B200's and the like I'm sure are higher resolution speakers, however, they REQUIRE another driver or sub to be a complete speaker.  If you plan to play them at a meaningful volume, you have to filter the LF content to avoid over exerting the fullranger and the augmenter has to have some kind of low pass filter.  In addition the augmenter is probably going to need some form of EQ.

Once you add any other driver, then the sky is the limit.  Any good drivers you want can handle the 200 or 300hz and up range.  Sure great results are possible but you definitely get totally away from a minimalist approach.

I personally haven't made up my mind yet about whether to use separately amp'd OB sub(s) or not.  I'm also undecided about high resolution because with the Joint Chiefs I'm listening to more music and a wider variety of music because it all sounds good.

The Iris gives us a simple solution and I believe it's going to take it or something similar (maybe a 12" so we don't need such a large front) to advance the neglected part of baffle design for OB's.  Even JohnK, who first pushed the U-baffle benefits concept only used an open backed box and only for the woofer section in his Nao speaker design.  That's OK, there's still some of that teenage rebel in me, so I don't mind standing out here with my torch and pitchfork chipping away at the castle walls.  It's nice to finally have some company because it's been kind of lonely.

[JLM]

Wind Chaser,

Yes, I've stated elsewhere that further testing in a better system after full break-in is in order, but I doubt they will ever sound as musical/detailed as the Fostex F200A or certainly the B200 (based on DMason's reports).  Just to compare: in my system the Auricap/Black Gate mods to my Clari-T were so impressive that it made me wonder why Vinnie sells it without, but with the Silver Iris the mods seemed to have no benefit.

JohnCR,

Exactly.  The Silver Iris is the easy, simple way to open baffles with satisfying bass and that counts for a lot in my book.  Build quality and price are big pluses too.  Hopefully after full break-in (which could take many months with their efficiency and power handling capabilities) they'll show better, but from what I heard I doubt it.  In fact, my stock Teac A-L700P seemed to be all you'd need to get everything out of the Silver Iris.